Muslim leader's anger at mosque attacks (From Bradford Telegraph and Argus)

Just how small minded, bitter and sad are some people. Bradford people have relatives involved in this massacre. I think most of us in Bradford have sympathy with those people and many also have sons and daughters fighting the Taleban. The more the T&A can highlight that our soldiers and government are protecting us and many decent Muslims from this terrorist group the better. Sadly some people just want to stir up trouble and don't care about Bradfordians or our troops.

Irrespective of who is involved and where the story broke it is a newsworthy article that has an impact on some of the readers of the T&A. This newspaper is for all people and believe it or not Asians also buy this paper and read it so if a story has some relevance for them it will be printed.
Back to the actual article. It's very sad that there are a minority of people who feel that to achieve any aims and objectives they have to resort to the killing of innocent people and they do it in the name of religion. These people have no idea about the ideology of their religion which is that the slaying of innocents is forbidden.They certainly do not represent the mainstream view.
I would like to point out that the Ahmadia community is not classed as Muslims in any country throughout the Islamic world due to the fact that they do not believe in the basic principles of the religion. Its pretty complicated to explain but i suppose its a bit like someone saying that Christ was not the son of God and the true Christ was someone who came along 600 years later. They would not be classed as Christians but some crazy spin off , however it still gives no one the right to kill them.
Finally , i know it will happen there will be comments posted on her which may be anti-Ahmadia and pretty extreme , remember these are not representative of the wider community but from narrow minded persons like those in the original 4 posts.
LOL

I don't mind this story being in the T&A as there are many Muslims who live in Bradford and read the local newspaper and this terrible story needs to be read .
What i'd also like to read more of is the persecution of Christians in Pakistan which is still going on and has involved churches being attacked and people being killed.

This is simply another illustration of why allowing a large influx of Muslims into this country was the biggest mistake imaginable.

How Albion? Why pick on Muslims? Most Muslims work hard and are just as liable to have the odd nutter as our local population,. I can't see how anybody from Bradford/W. Yorks. can try to take the moral high ground or feel that they have some element of superiority. Do you ignore all the news when it's about what you may class as "English"? I suppose your grandparents felt the same about Jews and Catholics!
I also suspect that you'll be a big St. George supporter. Sorry about the stereotyping - it must be infectious!

Billcliff wrote:
How Albion? Why pick on Muslims? Most Muslims work hard and are just as liable to have the odd nutter as our local population,. I can't see how anybody from Bradford/W. Yorks. can try to take the moral high ground or feel that they have some element of superiority. Do you ignore all the news when it's about what you may class as "English"? I suppose your grandparents felt the same about Jews and Catholics!
I also suspect that you'll be a big St. George supporter. Sorry about the stereotyping - it must be infectious!

It isnt about individuals, Islam is an all controlling way of life and not just a religion, if you wish this land to go the way of those countries that are already under the dictatorship of Islam then fair enough....I dont!
What is happening to the people featured in the report and Christians in Pakistan are simply illustrations of the intolerance that is Islam, no matter what its devotees might tell people.
I couldnt care less about St. George and dont see what relevance it would have if I did.

albion wrote:
This is simply another illustration of why allowing a large influx of Muslims into this country was the biggest mistake imaginable.

If you hadn't noticed, the attacks happened in *Pakistan* (not in the UK).
.
And quit blaming Muslims for your problems.

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:
This is simply another illustration of why allowing a large influx of Muslims into this country was the biggest mistake imaginable.

If you hadn't noticed, the attacks happened in *Pakistan* (not in the UK).
.
And quit blaming Muslims for your problems.

I dont have any problems, if I did I would sort them myself.
Islam is worldwide.

Try looking a bit closer to home - N.Ireland for example to see how tolerant some Christians are!
Just how many bombs, murders etc. did they commit. Look at the "Christians" in the USA - some of those groups make Muslim fudamentalists seem positively tolerant and reasonable!! All groups have their extremists who are bigoted and can't see two sides to any argument. Sadly the majority suffer for their intolerance - they are always trying to stir up hatred. They don't realise that they are playing into the hands of extremists.

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:
This is simply another illustration of why allowing a large influx of Muslims into this country was the biggest mistake imaginable.

If you hadn't noticed, the attacks happened in *Pakistan* (not in the UK).
.
And quit blaming Muslims for your problems.

I dont have any problems, if I did I would sort them myself.
Islam is worldwide.

albion, you commented on Christians in Pakistan.
.
What about in India, where they're being persecuted until death ? - what about in China ? - what about in... ?
.
Odd that you don't mention those countries.

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:
This is simply another illustration of why allowing a large influx of Muslims into this country was the biggest mistake imaginable.

If you hadn't noticed, the attacks happened in *Pakistan* (not in the UK).
.
And quit blaming Muslims for your problems.

I dont have any problems, if I did I would sort them myself.
Islam is worldwide.

albion, you commented on Christians in Pakistan.
.
What about in India, where they're being persecuted until death ? - what about in China ? - what about in... ?
.
Odd that you don't mention those countries.

It might well be because this is about Muslims and Pakistan!
I equally condemn any persecution of a violent nature, and for the record I am not a Christian so I dont have an agenda in that respect.

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:
This is simply another illustration of why allowing a large influx of Muslims into this country was the biggest mistake imaginable.

If you hadn't noticed, the attacks happened in *Pakistan* (not in the UK).
.
And quit blaming Muslims for your problems.

I dont have any problems, if I did I would sort them myself.
Islam is worldwide.

albion, you commented on Christians in Pakistan.
.
What about in India, where they're being persecuted until death ? - what about in China ? - what about in... ?
.
Odd that you don't mention those countries.

It might well be because this is about Muslims and Pakistan!
I equally condemn any persecution of a violent nature, and for the record I am not a Christian so I dont have an agenda in that respect.

But you're more 'pro' Christian that 'pro' Muslim ?
.
Why is that ?

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:
This is simply another illustration of why allowing a large influx of Muslims into this country was the biggest mistake imaginable.

If you hadn't noticed, the attacks happened in *Pakistan* (not in the UK).
.
And quit blaming Muslims for your problems.

I dont have any problems, if I did I would sort them myself.
Islam is worldwide.

albion, you commented on Christians in Pakistan.
.
What about in India, where they're being persecuted until death ? - what about in China ? - what about in... ?
.
Odd that you don't mention those countries.

It might well be because this is about Muslims and Pakistan!
I equally condemn any persecution of a violent nature, and for the record I am not a Christian so I dont have an agenda in that respect.

But you're more 'pro' Christian that 'pro' Muslim ?
.
Why is that ?

Because Muslims are the bigger threat to the ways and freedoms of this land.

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:
This is simply another illustration of why allowing a large influx of Muslims into this country was the biggest mistake imaginable.

If you hadn't noticed, the attacks happened in *Pakistan* (not in the UK).
.
And quit blaming Muslims for your problems.

I dont have any problems, if I did I would sort them myself.
Islam is worldwide.

albion, you commented on Christians in Pakistan.
.
What about in India, where they're being persecuted until death ? - what about in China ? - what about in... ?
.
Odd that you don't mention those countries.

It might well be because this is about Muslims and Pakistan!
I equally condemn any persecution of a violent nature, and for the record I am not a Christian so I dont have an agenda in that respect.

But you're more 'pro' Christian that 'pro' Muslim ?
.
Why is that ?

Because Muslims are the bigger threat to the ways and freedoms of this land.

In your opinion.

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote: This is simply another illustration of why allowing a large influx of Muslims into this country was the biggest mistake imaginable.

If you hadn't noticed, the attacks happened in *Pakistan* (not in the UK). . And quit blaming Muslims for your problems.

I dont have any problems, if I did I would sort them myself. Islam is worldwide.

albion, you commented on Christians in Pakistan. . What about in India, where they're being persecuted until death ? - what about in China ? - what about in... ? . Odd that you don't mention those countries.

It might well be because this is about Muslims and Pakistan! I equally condemn any persecution of a violent nature, and for the record I am not a Christian so I dont have an agenda in that respect.

But you're more 'pro' Christian that 'pro' Muslim ? . Why is that ?

Because Muslims are the bigger threat to the ways and freedoms of this land.

I think what people fail to understand it no religion says killing innocents is good, now if some of the people in certain religion are corrupt one should not sterotype the rest. common sense. Everyone can make sterotypes against religions e.g all Christian prists pedo's etc..but this is not the correct approach. As for Muslims a threat to freedom of this land I think that is just your opinion. Most muslims are hard working, and law abiding citizens in this land and don't deserve this sterotype of all being terrorist. As for Pakistani it was us British that called them here in the first place during the World War.

ms walker wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote: This is simply another illustration of why allowing a large influx of Muslims into this country was the biggest mistake imaginable.

If you hadn't noticed, the attacks happened in *Pakistan* (not in the UK). . And quit blaming Muslims for your problems.

I dont have any problems, if I did I would sort them myself. Islam is worldwide.

albion, you commented on Christians in Pakistan. . What about in India, where they're being persecuted until death ? - what about in China ? - what about in... ? . Odd that you don't mention those countries.

It might well be because this is about Muslims and Pakistan! I equally condemn any persecution of a violent nature, and for the record I am not a Christian so I dont have an agenda in that respect.

But you're more 'pro' Christian that 'pro' Muslim ? . Why is that ?

Because Muslims are the bigger threat to the ways and freedoms of this land.

In your opinion.

You've got to admit though, you don't see Christian fundamentalists out there calling for beheadings on those who insult jesus, Christian suicide bombers on the underground etc.

Problem is, Muslims seem very good at criticising others - The US, Israel, Danish cartoonists etc. But are not very vocal on atrocities commited by other muslims in the name of their religion, wether at home or abroad. Good on this guy for actually condemning these mosque killings, but until we see similar larger protests from the Muslim community in the way we have seen before eg. the anti-war and Danish cartoon ones etc, people will still feel wary about the religion having an "us and them" attitude.

Sonic the cat wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote: This is simply another illustration of why allowing a large influx of Muslims into this country was the biggest mistake imaginable.

If you hadn't noticed, the attacks happened in *Pakistan* (not in the UK). . And quit blaming Muslims for your problems.

I dont have any problems, if I did I would sort them myself. Islam is worldwide.

albion, you commented on Christians in Pakistan. . What about in India, where they're being persecuted until death ? - what about in China ? - what about in... ? . Odd that you don't mention those countries.

It might well be because this is about Muslims and Pakistan! I equally condemn any persecution of a violent nature, and for the record I am not a Christian so I dont have an agenda in that respect.

But you're more 'pro' Christian that 'pro' Muslim ? . Why is that ?

Because Muslims are the bigger threat to the ways and freedoms of this land.

I think what people fail to understand it no religion says killing innocents is good, now if some of the people in certain religion are corrupt one should not sterotype the rest. common sense. Everyone can make sterotypes against religions e.g all Christian prists pedo's etc..but this is not the correct approach. As for Muslims a threat to freedom of this land I think that is just your opinion. Most muslims are hard working, and law abiding citizens in this land and don't deserve this sterotype of all being terrorist. As for Pakistani it was us British that called them here in the first place during the World War.

Obviously my opinion is my own and not official government policy or anything (I do blame them for the immigration situation in this country though).
I would agree that most Muslims are hard working etc. But the stronger Islam becomes here the more it will attempt to assert its ideals.
Most religions and their directives (the bible and the koran for instance) do indeed advocate violence against opponents, which is often the excuse used by fundamentalists when committing acts of terrorism.

Rambo wrote:

ms walker wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote: This is simply another illustration of why allowing a large influx of Muslims into this country was the biggest mistake imaginable.

If you hadn't noticed, the attacks happened in *Pakistan* (not in the UK). . And quit blaming Muslims for your problems.

I dont have any problems, if I did I would sort them myself. Islam is worldwide.

albion, you commented on Christians in Pakistan. . What about in India, where they're being persecuted until death ? - what about in China ? - what about in... ? . Odd that you don't mention those countries.

It might well be because this is about Muslims and Pakistan! I equally condemn any persecution of a violent nature, and for the record I am not a Christian so I dont have an agenda in that respect.

But you're more 'pro' Christian that 'pro' Muslim ? . Why is that ?

Because Muslims are the bigger threat to the ways and freedoms of this land.

In your opinion.

You've got to admit though, you don't see Christian fundamentalists out there calling for beheadings on those who insult jesus, Christian suicide bombers on the underground etc.

Problem is, Muslims seem very good at criticising others - The US, Israel, Danish cartoonists etc. But are not very vocal on atrocities commited by other muslims in the name of their religion, wether at home or abroad. Good on this guy for actually condemning these mosque killings, but until we see similar larger protests from the Muslim community in the way we have seen before eg. the anti-war and Danish cartoon ones etc, people will still feel wary about the religion having an "us and them" attitude.

Muslims *do* condemn the actions of others; it's just that you don't hear about it (because apparently, it's not newsworthy).
.
And you don't believe Christian extremists/terrorist
s exist ? - see Bush & Co (you know, the ones that were told by 'God' to start killing thousands of people in Iraq).
.
Or Jewish terrorists who murder Palestinians on a weekly basis (because 'God' told them to cleanse the land of non-Jews).
.
I hope you'll take the above into consideration when criticising only a certain religion.

Albion - UR AN IDIOT!

Get a life u muppet!
U think any1 cares about ur "opinion" ?

I think ul find most muslims are hard working compared 2 the Trash seen on predominantly white estates etc.

Notice how we drive the cars and have the houses and businesses while "you" have nothing but a council house for which u pay nothing, an army of childre whose 15year old fathers are nowhere to be seen, and a fridge full of Cider that was bought with the TAX I PAID!

We are here 2 stay. . . GET USED 2 IT!

Get a job and make something of urself rather than sit behind your PC screen being bitter. You will depress yourself. . . . Or just get drunk & inject urself into happiness! :-D

http://www.independe
nt.co.uk/news/uk/hom
e-news/sheikh-issues
-fatwa-against-all-t
errorists-1915000.ht
ml

Who is a well known Shayke in the Muslim Community but as Andraste,has stated its not 'news worthy'.

And as for Christian terrorist, I have been to a church in Austria that is made of human bones of Muslims.. So enough of the same old all muslims are terroist line.

The_Realist wrote:
Albion - UR AN IDIOT!

Get a life u muppet!
U think any1 cares about ur "opinion" ?

I think ul find most muslims are hard working compared 2 the Trash seen on predominantly white estates etc.

Notice how we drive the cars and have the houses and businesses while "you" have nothing but a council house for which u pay nothing, an army of childre whose 15year old fathers are nowhere to be seen, and a fridge full of Cider that was bought with the TAX I PAID!

We are here 2 stay. . . GET USED 2 IT!

Get a job and make something of urself rather than sit behind your PC screen being bitter. You will depress yourself. . . . Or just get drunk & inject urself into happiness! :-D

Get a job? I have been retired for many years, do not live on an estate and am financially self supporting, I very rarely drink and certainly do not use narcotics.
I also find it somewhat ironic that someone who posts with your standards of grammar and spelling has the nerve to label anyone else an idiot.

Sonic the cat wrote:
http://www.independe

nt.co.uk/news/uk/hom

e-news/sheikh-issues

-fatwa-against-all-t

errorists-1915000.ht

ml

Who is a well known Shayke in the Muslim Community but as Andraste,has stated its not 'news worthy'.

And as for Christian terrorist, I have been to a church in Austria that is made of human bones of Muslims.. So enough of the same old all muslims are terroist line.

I must have missed that one, I didnt see a post saying "all Muslims are terrorists".

Wake up, never mind this ignorance and minority crap some people are posting, what ever happened to free speech do you remember the old sayings and nursery rymes because your kids will NOT small things like black board, ba ba black sheep the fact that police are asking landlords to ban people from their local bars from wearing their 3 lions England football shirts because other people find it racial, come on wake the **** up. I am happy to say that i now live in another country as an immigrant the only differance is i did it legally and accept the laws of their land, i always said i would never give up my British passport but i am second guessing myself rite now.

albion wrote:

Sonic the cat wrote: http://www.independe nt.co.uk/news/uk/hom e-news/sheikh-issues -fatwa-against-all-t errorists-1915000.ht ml Who is a well known Shayke in the Muslim Community but as Andraste,has stated its not 'news worthy'. And as for Christian terrorist, I have been to a church in Austria that is made of human bones of Muslims.. So enough of the same old all muslims are terroist line.

I must have missed that one, I didnt see a post saying "all Muslims are terrorists".

You don't need to it, its pretty apperent by your conversation.

smm3511 wrote:
Wake up, never mind this ignorance and minority crap some people are posting, what ever happened to free speech do you remember the old sayings and nursery rymes because your kids will NOT small things like black board, ba ba black sheep the fact that police are asking landlords to ban people from their local bars from wearing their 3 lions England football shirts because other people find it racial, come on wake the **** up. I am happy to say that i now live in another country as an immigrant the only differance is i did it legally and accept the laws of their land, i always said i would never give up my British passport but i am second guessing myself rite now.

Free speech offends people and no longer used in this country...
If one says something against Christian they anti-Chritian
Against Muslims they Islamaphobic, Against Jews they Anti Zionist, against gays they Homophobic... You get the picture so lets all not give OUR views as we may get a slap on the wrist for it.

Britain used to be a country of great value and moral but since the recent Isreali attack on the aid ships my views have begin to differ, I think rather then condeming other cultures/countries about their terrorist activities and what and how they lack etc we should look within our borders to stop supporting such acts! No wonder we are a laughing stock amougst the Muslim countries for being such hypercrtics. I think I might aswell retire to another country too!

"Britain used to be a country of great value and moral but since the recent Isreali attack on the aid ships my views have begin to differ,"

So were responsible for the actions of the Israelis now? As far as I'm aware Cameron has already condemned the attack on the flotilla, he hasn't even mentioned this massacre of the Ahmadi minority sect, nor the multiple bombings that are carried out every week in the name of Islam.

As usual with cultural relativists up is down and down is up. Our country is apparently responsible for the crimes of another and we should cry ourselves to sleep over it, but the Pakistani government is exempt from criticism when they declare a minority sect to be infidels worthy of being persecuted and killed, we should just stay out of their business and let them go on persecuting heretics.

smm3511 wrote:
Wake up, never mind this ignorance and minority crap some people are posting, what ever happened to free speech do you remember the old sayings and nursery rymes because your kids will NOT small things like black board, ba ba black sheep the fact that police are asking landlords to ban people from their local bars from wearing their 3 lions England football shirts because other people find it racial, come on wake the **** up. I am happy to say that i now live in another country as an immigrant the only differance is i did it legally and accept the laws of their land, i always said i would never give up my British passport but i am second guessing myself rite now.

You still get the Daily Mail in the USA then??

Andraste wrote:

Rambo wrote:

ms walker wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote: This is simply another illustration of why allowing a large influx of Muslims into this country was the biggest mistake imaginable.

If you hadn't noticed, the attacks happened in *Pakistan* (not in the UK). . And quit blaming Muslims for your problems.

I dont have any problems, if I did I would sort them myself. Islam is worldwide.

albion, you commented on Christians in Pakistan. . What about in India, where they're being persecuted until death ? - what about in China ? - what about in... ? . Odd that you don't mention those countries.

It might well be because this is about Muslims and Pakistan! I equally condemn any persecution of a violent nature, and for the record I am not a Christian so I dont have an agenda in that respect.

But you're more 'pro' Christian that 'pro' Muslim ? . Why is that ?

Because Muslims are the bigger threat to the ways and freedoms of this land.

In your opinion.

You've got to admit though, you don't see Christian fundamentalists out there calling for beheadings on those who insult jesus, Christian suicide bombers on the underground etc. Problem is, Muslims seem very good at criticising others - The US, Israel, Danish cartoonists etc. But are not very vocal on atrocities commited by other muslims in the name of their religion, wether at home or abroad. Good on this guy for actually condemning these mosque killings, but until we see similar larger protests from the Muslim community in the way we have seen before eg. the anti-war and Danish cartoon ones etc, people will still feel wary about the religion having an "us and them" attitude.

Muslims *do* condemn the actions of others; it's just that you don't hear about it (because apparently, it's not newsworthy). . And you don't believe Christian extremists/terrorist s exist ? - see Bush & Co (you know, the ones that were told by 'God' to start killing thousands of people in Iraq). . Or Jewish terrorists who murder Palestinians on a weekly basis (because 'God' told them to cleanse the land of non-Jews). . I hope you'll take the above into consideration when criticising only a certain religion.

wondered how long it would take Iona Andraste to bring Israel into the discussion !!! change of name same old drivel roll eyes yawn etc.........

Dr Iqbal wants to get off his fat a**e
and go to Pakistan to air his views, not shout from the sidelines, thats the cowards way.

Got the house. Got the car. What an awesome example of achieving the British dream. I guess that forced marriages, first cousin inter-breeding, poor educational attainment, Islamic medievalism and low levels of economic participation are other examples. Instead of comparing yourself to many of those on the sink estates why not compare the fortunes of different immigrant groups, the example of Indians in particular whose levels of assimilation and achievement tend to massively exceed those of the Paks. I wonder why. Don't tell me that the Paks are victimised or unloved. Maybe the evidence is back in the motherland. Dr Mohammed Iqbal is merely testifying that Pakistan is a failed state and a screwed up one at that. Not a positive example for those aspiring to a western life methinks.

Forced marriages, cousin interbreeding - our Royal family have set the example for others to follow!
I think that if you look at past history Christians have an equally bad record of bigotry and killing in the name not only of Christianity but also for their version of Christianity.

To be fair the royal family is just that, ie a family and not a society. I am also more concerned with issues today than past history. Not in my back yard thanks.

That must be tough.
Heroic even.
To proclaim your faith under the threat of death.
What a state of affairs, as bad as Saddams regime in effect.
Medieval times, but I'm sure the government doesn't represent the feelings of the majority, and so such injustices will prevail.
I'm reminded of another lot who don't represent the majority.

bredandbuttered wrote:
That must be tough. Heroic even. To proclaim your faith under the threat of death. What a state of affairs, as bad as Saddams regime in effect. Medieval times, but I'm sure the government doesn't represent the feelings of the majority, and so such injustices will prevail. I'm reminded of another lot who don't represent the majority.

'I'm reminded of another lot who don't represent the majority.'

Heaven forbid, are you talking about Bradford and its elected representatives?

thecitygent wrote:
Got the house. Got the car. What an awesome example of achieving the British dream. I guess that forced marriages, first cousin inter-breeding, poor educational attainment, Islamic medievalism and low levels of economic participation are other examples. Instead of comparing yourself to many of those on the sink estates why not compare the fortunes of different immigrant groups, the example of Indians in particular whose levels of assimilation and achievement tend to massively exceed those of the Paks. I wonder why. Don't tell me that the Paks are victimised or unloved. Maybe the evidence is back in the motherland. Dr Mohammed Iqbal is merely testifying that Pakistan is a failed state and a screwed up one at that. Not a positive example for those aspiring to a western life methinks.

Don't blame the religion; blame the *culture*, citygent.
.
The Faith says get off your behind and contribute to society; if certain people refuse to live by the Laws of their religion, then why are you blaming that Faith ?
.
Again, you need to separate culture from religion; the former stops them; the latter doesn't.
.
Think of the Golden Age of Islam, back in the Middle Ages, when the West was in the Dark (Ages), and the Muslim world in Enlightenment.
.
Yes, unfortunately it's all changed now (because the followers of that Faith have discarded how they're supposed to live).

Andraste wrote:

thecitygent wrote:
Got the house. Got the car. What an awesome example of achieving the British dream. I guess that forced marriages, first cousin inter-breeding, poor educational attainment, Islamic medievalism and low levels of economic participation are other examples. Instead of comparing yourself to many of those on the sink estates why not compare the fortunes of different immigrant groups, the example of Indians in particular whose levels of assimilation and achievement tend to massively exceed those of the Paks. I wonder why. Don't tell me that the Paks are victimised or unloved. Maybe the evidence is back in the motherland. Dr Mohammed Iqbal is merely testifying that Pakistan is a failed state and a screwed up one at that. Not a positive example for those aspiring to a western life methinks.

Don't blame the religion; blame the *culture*, citygent.
.
The Faith says get off your behind and contribute to society; if certain people refuse to live by the Laws of their religion, then why are you blaming that Faith ?
.
Again, you need to separate culture from religion; the former stops them; the latter doesn't.
.
Think of the Golden Age of Islam, back in the Middle Ages, when the West was in the Dark (Ages), and the Muslim world in Enlightenment.
.
Yes, unfortunately it's all changed now (because the followers of that Faith have discarded how they're supposed to live).

That is because some religions adapted to their evolving surroundings.

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

thecitygent wrote:
Got the house. Got the car. What an awesome example of achieving the British dream. I guess that forced marriages, first cousin inter-breeding, poor educational attainment, Islamic medievalism and low levels of economic participation are other examples. Instead of comparing yourself to many of those on the sink estates why not compare the fortunes of different immigrant groups, the example of Indians in particular whose levels of assimilation and achievement tend to massively exceed those of the Paks. I wonder why. Don't tell me that the Paks are victimised or unloved. Maybe the evidence is back in the motherland. Dr Mohammed Iqbal is merely testifying that Pakistan is a failed state and a screwed up one at that. Not a positive example for those aspiring to a western life methinks.

Don't blame the religion; blame the *culture*, citygent.
.
The Faith says get off your behind and contribute to society; if certain people refuse to live by the Laws of their religion, then why are you blaming that Faith ?
.
Again, you need to separate culture from religion; the former stops them; the latter doesn't.
.
Think of the Golden Age of Islam, back in the Middle Ages, when the West was in the Dark (Ages), and the Muslim world in Enlightenment.
.
Yes, unfortunately it's all changed now (because the followers of that Faith have discarded how they're supposed to live).

That is because some religions adapted to their evolving surroundings.

I disagree.
.
The 'surroundings' shouldn't make a difference in how people of Faith live their lives.
.
The Islamic religion expects people to innovate, explore, contribute (just like in the Golden Age); sadly, all the values mentioned have gone out of the window :(

bcfc1903 wrote:
I don't mind this story being in the T&A as there are many Muslims who live in Bradford and read the local newspaper and this terrible story needs to be read . What i'd also like to read more of is the persecution of Christians in Pakistan which is still going on and has involved churches being attacked and people being killed.

I'd like to see it in national media, never mind just the local.
The day that happens in the T&A , there will be snowball fights in hell & and numerous sightings of pigs flying round the country.

thecitygent wrote:

bredandbuttered wrote: That must be tough. Heroic even. To proclaim your faith under the threat of death. What a state of affairs, as bad as Saddams regime in effect. Medieval times, but I'm sure the government doesn't represent the feelings of the majority, and so such injustices will prevail. I'm reminded of another lot who don't represent the majority.

'I'm reminded of another lot who don't represent the majority.' Heaven forbid, are you talking about Bradford and its elected representatives?

Well I was thinking further south, but come to mention it....

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

thecitygent wrote: Got the house. Got the car. What an awesome example of achieving the British dream. I guess that forced marriages, first cousin inter-breeding, poor educational attainment, Islamic medievalism and low levels of economic participation are other examples. Instead of comparing yourself to many of those on the sink estates why not compare the fortunes of different immigrant groups, the example of Indians in particular whose levels of assimilation and achievement tend to massively exceed those of the Paks. I wonder why. Don't tell me that the Paks are victimised or unloved. Maybe the evidence is back in the motherland. Dr Mohammed Iqbal is merely testifying that Pakistan is a failed state and a screwed up one at that. Not a positive example for those aspiring to a western life methinks.

Don't blame the religion; blame the *culture*, citygent. . The Faith says get off your behind and contribute to society; if certain people refuse to live by the Laws of their religion, then why are you blaming that Faith ? . Again, you need to separate culture from religion; the former stops them; the latter doesn't. . Think of the Golden Age of Islam, back in the Middle Ages, when the West was in the Dark (Ages), and the Muslim world in Enlightenment. . Yes, unfortunately it's all changed now (because the followers of that Faith have discarded how they're supposed to live).

That is because some religions adapted to their evolving surroundings.

I disagree. . The 'surroundings' shouldn't make a difference in how people of Faith live their lives. . The Islamic religion expects people to innovate, explore, contribute (just like in the Golden Age); sadly, all the values mentioned have gone out of the window :(

for once I agree with you ....but its not just the followers of Islam but those of all religions...

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

thecitygent wrote:
Got the house. Got the car. What an awesome example of achieving the British dream. I guess that forced marriages, first cousin inter-breeding, poor educational attainment, Islamic medievalism and low levels of economic participation are other examples. Instead of comparing yourself to many of those on the sink estates why not compare the fortunes of different immigrant groups, the example of Indians in particular whose levels of assimilation and achievement tend to massively exceed those of the Paks. I wonder why. Don't tell me that the Paks are victimised or unloved. Maybe the evidence is back in the motherland. Dr Mohammed Iqbal is merely testifying that Pakistan is a failed state and a screwed up one at that. Not a positive example for those aspiring to a western life methinks.

Don't blame the religion; blame the *culture*, citygent.
.
The Faith says get off your behind and contribute to society; if certain people refuse to live by the Laws of their religion, then why are you blaming that Faith ?
.
Again, you need to separate culture from religion; the former stops them; the latter doesn't.
.
Think of the Golden Age of Islam, back in the Middle Ages, when the West was in the Dark (Ages), and the Muslim world in Enlightenment.
.
Yes, unfortunately it's all changed now (because the followers of that Faith have discarded how they're supposed to live).

That is because some religions adapted to their evolving surroundings.

I disagree.
.
The 'surroundings' shouldn't make a difference in how people of Faith live their lives.
.
The Islamic religion expects people to innovate, explore, contribute (just like in the Golden Age); sadly, all the values mentioned have gone out of the window :(

I could dump a pile of Koran quotes but that would undoubtedly lead to censorship, It strikes me that the followers of Ahmadiyya are more adaptable and agreeable to western society.

thecitygent wrote:
To be fair the royal family is just that, ie a family and not a society. I am also more concerned with issues today than past history. Not in my back yard thanks.

The Royal family are the Head of our state and The Church of England - the model for the rest of us. Did you have the same hostility to the Irish immigrants in Bradford when Irish extremist were planting bombs daily? Is it just the Muslims or do you hate all religious groups. You must have very one sided viewpoint if you can't see that all religions have their dangerous extremists who the majority are ashamed of.

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

thecitygent wrote: Got the house. Got the car. What an awesome example of achieving the British dream. I guess that forced marriages, first cousin inter-breeding, poor educational attainment, Islamic medievalism and low levels of economic participation are other examples. Instead of comparing yourself to many of those on the sink estates why not compare the fortunes of different immigrant groups, the example of Indians in particular whose levels of assimilation and achievement tend to massively exceed those of the Paks. I wonder why. Don't tell me that the Paks are victimised or unloved. Maybe the evidence is back in the motherland. Dr Mohammed Iqbal is merely testifying that Pakistan is a failed state and a screwed up one at that. Not a positive example for those aspiring to a western life methinks.

Don't blame the religion; blame the *culture*, citygent. . The Faith says get off your behind and contribute to society; if certain people refuse to live by the Laws of their religion, then why are you blaming that Faith ? . Again, you need to separate culture from religion; the former stops them; the latter doesn't. . Think of the Golden Age of Islam, back in the Middle Ages, when the West was in the Dark (Ages), and the Muslim world in Enlightenment. . Yes, unfortunately it's all changed now (because the followers of that Faith have discarded how they're supposed to live).

That is because some religions adapted to their evolving surroundings.

I disagree. . The 'surroundings' shouldn't make a difference in how people of Faith live their lives. . The Islamic religion expects people to innovate, explore, contribute (just like in the Golden Age); sadly, all the values mentioned have gone out of the window :(

I could dump a pile of Koran quotes but that would undoubtedly lead to censorship, It strikes me that the followers of Ahmadiyya are more adaptable and agreeable to western society.

Yawn, roll eyes and despair. You are obviously thinking of the seventy virgins waiting for you in heaven. Oh what a faith that must be.

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

thecitygent wrote: Got the house. Got the car. What an awesome example of achieving the British dream. I guess that forced marriages, first cousin inter-breeding, poor educational attainment, Islamic medievalism and low levels of economic participation are other examples. Instead of comparing yourself to many of those on the sink estates why not compare the fortunes of different immigrant groups, the example of Indians in particular whose levels of assimilation and achievement tend to massively exceed those of the Paks. I wonder why. Don't tell me that the Paks are victimised or unloved. Maybe the evidence is back in the motherland. Dr Mohammed Iqbal is merely testifying that Pakistan is a failed state and a screwed up one at that. Not a positive example for those aspiring to a western life methinks.

Don't blame the religion; blame the *culture*, citygent. . The Faith says get off your behind and contribute to society; if certain people refuse to live by the Laws of their religion, then why are you blaming that Faith ? . Again, you need to separate culture from religion; the former stops them; the latter doesn't. . Think of the Golden Age of Islam, back in the Middle Ages, when the West was in the Dark (Ages), and the Muslim world in Enlightenment. . Yes, unfortunately it's all changed now (because the followers of that Faith have discarded how they're supposed to live).

That is because some religions adapted to their evolving surroundings.

I disagree. . The 'surroundings' shouldn't make a difference in how people of Faith live their lives. . The Islamic religion expects people to innovate, explore, contribute (just like in the Golden Age); sadly, all the values mentioned have gone out of the window :(

I could dump a pile of Koran quotes but that would undoubtedly lead to censorship, It strikes me that the followers of Ahmadiyya are more adaptable and agreeable to western society.

Yawn, roll eyes and despair. You are obviously thinking of the seventy virgins waiting for you in heaven. Oh what a faith that must be.

Sorry but you offer a weak argument. No I didn't have the same hostility to the Irish. Their motivation was ultimately that of nationalism and not religion.

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

thecitygent wrote:
Got the house. Got the car. What an awesome example of achieving the British dream. I guess that forced marriages, first cousin inter-breeding, poor educational attainment, Islamic medievalism and low levels of economic participation are other examples. Instead of comparing yourself to many of those on the sink estates why not compare the fortunes of different immigrant groups, the example of Indians in particular whose levels of assimilation and achievement tend to massively exceed those of the Paks. I wonder why. Don't tell me that the Paks are victimised or unloved. Maybe the evidence is back in the motherland. Dr Mohammed Iqbal is merely testifying that Pakistan is a failed state and a screwed up one at that. Not a positive example for those aspiring to a western life methinks.

Don't blame the religion; blame the *culture*, citygent.
.
The Faith says get off your behind and contribute to society; if certain people refuse to live by the Laws of their religion, then why are you blaming that Faith ?
.
Again, you need to separate culture from religion; the former stops them; the latter doesn't.
.
Think of the Golden Age of Islam, back in the Middle Ages, when the West was in the Dark (Ages), and the Muslim world in Enlightenment.
.
Yes, unfortunately it's all changed now (because the followers of that Faith have discarded how they're supposed to live).

That is because some religions adapted to their evolving surroundings.

I disagree.
.
The 'surroundings' shouldn't make a difference in how people of Faith live their lives.
.
The Islamic religion expects people to innovate, explore, contribute (just like in the Golden Age); sadly, all the values mentioned have gone out of the window :(

I could dump a pile of Koran quotes but that would undoubtedly lead to censorship, It strikes me that the followers of Ahmadiyya are more adaptable and agreeable to western society.

If it was up to me, albion, it certainly *wouldn't* lead to censorship.
.
And if you were going to decide to post certain Verses, I feel you'll be doing so *out* of context.
.
One has to remember the time when they were Revealed, and under what circumstance.
.
(unfortunately, those who don't have a clue about the Islamic faith, tend to dismiss all that and instead make all sorts of comments that will somehow 'fulfil' their agenda).

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

thecitygent wrote:
Got the house. Got the car. What an awesome example of achieving the British dream. I guess that forced marriages, first cousin inter-breeding, poor educational attainment, Islamic medievalism and low levels of economic participation are other examples. Instead of comparing yourself to many of those on the sink estates why not compare the fortunes of different immigrant groups, the example of Indians in particular whose levels of assimilation and achievement tend to massively exceed those of the Paks. I wonder why. Don't tell me that the Paks are victimised or unloved. Maybe the evidence is back in the motherland. Dr Mohammed Iqbal is merely testifying that Pakistan is a failed state and a screwed up one at that. Not a positive example for those aspiring to a western life methinks.

Don't blame the religion; blame the *culture*, citygent.
.
The Faith says get off your behind and contribute to society; if certain people refuse to live by the Laws of their religion, then why are you blaming that Faith ?
.
Again, you need to separate culture from religion; the former stops them; the latter doesn't.
.
Think of the Golden Age of Islam, back in the Middle Ages, when the West was in the Dark (Ages), and the Muslim world in Enlightenment.
.
Yes, unfortunately it's all changed now (because the followers of that Faith have discarded how they're supposed to live).

That is because some religions adapted to their evolving surroundings.

I disagree.
.
The 'surroundings' shouldn't make a difference in how people of Faith live their lives.
.
The Islamic religion expects people to innovate, explore, contribute (just like in the Golden Age); sadly, all the values mentioned have gone out of the window :(

I could dump a pile of Koran quotes but that would undoubtedly lead to censorship, It strikes me that the followers of Ahmadiyya are more adaptable and agreeable to western society.

If it was up to me, albion, it certainly *wouldn't* lead to censorship.
.
And if you were going to decide to post certain Verses, I feel you'll be doing so *out* of context.
.
One has to remember the time when they were Revealed, and under what circumstance.
.
(unfortunately, those who don't have a clue about the Islamic faith, tend to dismiss all that and instead make all sorts of comments that will somehow 'fulfil' their agenda).

But those who use religion as an excuse for terrorism also quote verses out of context!
They are the ones along with certain spokespersons who are establishing themselves in the background as Islam expands, ready to promote their agenda as and when the time seems right.
The fact is you and your gullible cronies should grow out of following the rantings of a hallucinating,murder
ing control freak with a dubious taste in wives and stand up and be your own person, kneel to nothing!

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

thecitygent wrote:
Got the house. Got the car. What an awesome example of achieving the British dream. I guess that forced marriages, first cousin inter-breeding, poor educational attainment, Islamic medievalism and low levels of economic participation are other examples. Instead of comparing yourself to many of those on the sink estates why not compare the fortunes of different immigrant groups, the example of Indians in particular whose levels of assimilation and achievement tend to massively exceed those of the Paks. I wonder why. Don't tell me that the Paks are victimised or unloved. Maybe the evidence is back in the motherland. Dr Mohammed Iqbal is merely testifying that Pakistan is a failed state and a screwed up one at that. Not a positive example for those aspiring to a western life methinks.

Don't blame the religion; blame the *culture*, citygent.
.
The Faith says get off your behind and contribute to society; if certain people refuse to live by the Laws of their religion, then why are you blaming that Faith ?
.
Again, you need to separate culture from religion; the former stops them; the latter doesn't.
.
Think of the Golden Age of Islam, back in the Middle Ages, when the West was in the Dark (Ages), and the Muslim world in Enlightenment.
.
Yes, unfortunately it's all changed now (because the followers of that Faith have discarded how they're supposed to live).

That is because some religions adapted to their evolving surroundings.

I disagree.
.
The 'surroundings' shouldn't make a difference in how people of Faith live their lives.
.
The Islamic religion expects people to innovate, explore, contribute (just like in the Golden Age); sadly, all the values mentioned have gone out of the window :(

I could dump a pile of Koran quotes but that would undoubtedly lead to censorship, It strikes me that the followers of Ahmadiyya are more adaptable and agreeable to western society.

If it was up to me, albion, it certainly *wouldn't* lead to censorship.
.
And if you were going to decide to post certain Verses, I feel you'll be doing so *out* of context.
.
One has to remember the time when they were Revealed, and under what circumstance.
.
(unfortunately, those who don't have a clue about the Islamic faith, tend to dismiss all that and instead make all sorts of comments that will somehow 'fulfil' their agenda).

But those who use religion as an excuse for terrorism also quote verses out of context!
They are the ones along with certain spokespersons who are establishing themselves in the background as Islam expands, ready to promote their agenda as and when the time seems right.
The fact is you and your gullible cronies should grow out of following the rantings of a hallucinating,murder

ing control freak with a dubious taste in wives and stand up and be your own person, kneel to nothing!

*sigh*
.
More hatred, albion. Talk about irony.

You want to read outdated quotes inspiring hatred, murder and slavery - try the Bible!

Billcliff wrote:
You want to read outdated quotes inspiring hatred, murder and slavery - try the Bible!

See my post:-
1:28 PM THU 3 JUN 10.

Billcliff wrote:
You want to read outdated quotes inspiring hatred, murder and slavery - try the Bible!

Not sure who are more frightening - the islamists or the islamapologists. The silent majority have drawn their own conclusions about Bradford and voted with their feet.

thecitygent wrote:
Sorry but you offer a weak argument. No I didn't have the same hostility to the Irish. Their motivation was ultimately that of nationalism and not religion.

The Rev. Ian Paisley! You are confusing Nationalism with the protestants not wanting to be involved with Catholic Ireland. You were correct about the IRA who certainly weren't fighting for religious reasons. The point you missed was that the Irish were bombing the English daily. Thousands were killed and you weren't "hostile". Why not? They/we (my family has Irish connections) were living in this country and killing English soldiers and civilians. Those involved on both sides caused far more deaths than the present problems.
my "weak argument" is that you seem to have a one sided view of how religion has brought about conflict and concentate far too much hatred onto one group. You can't seem to see that the majority just want to get on with their lives. They support English football teams - my neighbour - who is from Pakistan has a garden full of English flags. The majority of Asian families that I've met are very positive members of our society.

Billcliff wrote:

thecitygent wrote: Sorry but you offer a weak argument. No I didn't have the same hostility to the Irish. Their motivation was ultimately that of nationalism and not religion.

The Rev. Ian Paisley! You are confusing Nationalism with the protestants not wanting to be involved with Catholic Ireland. You were correct about the IRA who certainly weren't fighting for religious reasons. The point you missed was that the Irish were bombing the English daily. Thousands were killed and you weren't "hostile". Why not? They/we (my family has Irish connections) were living in this country and killing English soldiers and civilians. Those involved on both sides caused far more deaths than the present problems. my "weak argument" is that you seem to have a one sided view of how religion has brought about conflict and concentate far too much hatred onto one group. You can't seem to see that the majority just want to get on with their lives. They support English football teams - my neighbour - who is from Pakistan has a garden full of English flags. The majority of Asian families that I've met are very positive members of our society.

You obviously have a more optimistic outlook (some might suggest naive) than I do.

thecitygent wrote:

Billcliff wrote:

thecitygent wrote: Sorry but you offer a weak argument. No I didn't have the same hostility to the Irish. Their motivation was ultimately that of nationalism and not religion.

The Rev. Ian Paisley! You are confusing Nationalism with the protestants not wanting to be involved with Catholic Ireland. You were correct about the IRA who certainly weren't fighting for religious reasons. The point you missed was that the Irish were bombing the English daily. Thousands were killed and you weren't "hostile". Why not? They/we (my family has Irish connections) were living in this country and killing English soldiers and civilians. Those involved on both sides caused far more deaths than the present problems. my "weak argument" is that you seem to have a one sided view of how religion has brought about conflict and concentate far too much hatred onto one group. You can't seem to see that the majority just want to get on with their lives. They support English football teams - my neighbour - who is from Pakistan has a garden full of English flags. The majority of Asian families that I've met are very positive members of our society.

You obviously have a more optimistic outlook (some might suggest naive) than I do.

Not naive - I base my opinions on the last 30 years of working with communities in Bradford and not on bigoted and biased views gleaned from some newspapers. The very fact that this article was "attacked" as not being relevant to Bradford people and the comments following yours by Stan have lead me to believe that the problems facing Bradford are brought about by ignorant extremists from all sides. The majority of us just want to get along. The Asian families living near me are a welcome, hard working addition to our community as were the many other immigrant groups who came to Bradford. Don't believe the rubbish you read in so many papers, try to get out more and mix with different ethnic groups - you might learn something.

Billcliff wrote:

thecitygent wrote:

Billcliff wrote:

thecitygent wrote: Sorry but you offer a weak argument. No I didn't have the same hostility to the Irish. Their motivation was ultimately that of nationalism and not religion.

The Rev. Ian Paisley! You are confusing Nationalism with the protestants not wanting to be involved with Catholic Ireland. You were correct about the IRA who certainly weren't fighting for religious reasons. The point you missed was that the Irish were bombing the English daily. Thousands were killed and you weren't "hostile". Why not? They/we (my family has Irish connections) were living in this country and killing English soldiers and civilians. Those involved on both sides caused far more deaths than the present problems. my "weak argument" is that you seem to have a one sided view of how religion has brought about conflict and concentate far too much hatred onto one group. You can't seem to see that the majority just want to get on with their lives. They support English football teams - my neighbour - who is from Pakistan has a garden full of English flags. The majority of Asian families that I've met are very positive members of our society.

You obviously have a more optimistic outlook (some might suggest naive) than I do.

Not naive - I base my opinions on the last 30 years of working with communities in Bradford and not on bigoted and biased views gleaned from some newspapers. The very fact that this article was "attacked" as not being relevant to Bradford people and the comments following yours by Stan have lead me to believe that the problems facing Bradford are brought about by ignorant extremists from all sides. The majority of us just want to get along. The Asian families living near me are a welcome, hard working addition to our community as were the many other immigrant groups who came to Bradford. Don't believe the rubbish you read in so many papers, try to get out more and mix with different ethnic groups - you might learn something.

He can't :-( He is fixated on his agenda, and his agenda is misinformation and spreading hatred.

Home Office statistics provide an interesting insight into the economic participation and social assimilation of different ethnic groups. I have my own first hand experience that is consistent with those facts. I know a good cross-section of immigrants in Bradford and have found it noteworthy that they have even stronger feelings on the matter than I do.

Home Office statistics provide an interesting insight into the economic participation and social assimilation of different ethnic groups. I have my own first hand experience that is consistent with those facts. I know a good cross-section of immigrants in Bradford and have found it noteworthy that they have even stronger feelings on the matter than I do.

ms walker wrote:

Billcliff wrote:

thecitygent wrote:

Billcliff wrote:

thecitygent wrote: Sorry but you offer a weak argument. No I didn't have the same hostility to the Irish. Their motivation was ultimately that of nationalism and not religion.

The Rev. Ian Paisley! You are confusing Nationalism with the protestants not wanting to be involved with Catholic Ireland. You were correct about the IRA who certainly weren't fighting for religious reasons. The point you missed was that the Irish were bombing the English daily. Thousands were killed and you weren't "hostile". Why not? They/we (my family has Irish connections) were living in this country and killing English soldiers and civilians. Those involved on both sides caused far more deaths than the present problems. my "weak argument" is that you seem to have a one sided view of how religion has brought about conflict and concentate far too much hatred onto one group. You can't seem to see that the majority just want to get on with their lives. They support English football teams - my neighbour - who is from Pakistan has a garden full of English flags. The majority of Asian families that I've met are very positive members of our society.

You obviously have a more optimistic outlook (some might suggest naive) than I do.

Not naive - I base my opinions on the last 30 years of working with communities in Bradford and not on bigoted and biased views gleaned from some newspapers. The very fact that this article was "attacked" as not being relevant to Bradford people and the comments following yours by Stan have lead me to believe that the problems facing Bradford are brought about by ignorant extremists from all sides. The majority of us just want to get along. The Asian families living near me are a welcome, hard working addition to our community as were the many other immigrant groups who came to Bradford. Don't believe the rubbish you read in so many papers, try to get out more and mix with different ethnic groups - you might learn something.

He can't :-( He is fixated on his agenda, and his agenda is misinformation and spreading hatred.

Ms Walker has a bee in her bonnet (again). Have you managed to save the world this weekend and convince yourself to the contrary that it hasn't been raining today. Your normal modus operandi after all.

Sorry, for the record thought it worth pointing out that this household has the FT, Indie and Guardian delivered. I wasn't aware that any of them had a particular stance about muslims. However I do sense that the progressive broadsheets face a difficult position reconciling their liberal outlook with many of the islamic values practised in this country, the position of women being one of them. No doubt Ms Walker breathes a convenient sigh of relief that she wasn't born to wear the burkha.

thecitygent wrote:
Sorry, for the record thought it worth pointing out that this household has the FT, Indie and Guardian delivered. I wasn't aware that any of them had a particular stance about muslims. However I do sense that the progressive broadsheets face a difficult position reconciling their liberal outlook with many of the islamic values practised in this country, the position of women being one of them. No doubt Ms Walker breathes a convenient sigh of relief that she wasn't born to wear the burkha.

It would save on her having to shave of a morning!

thecitygent wrote:
Sorry, for the record thought it worth pointing out that this household has the FT, Indie and Guardian delivered. I wasn't aware that any of them had a particular stance about muslims. However I do sense that the progressive broadsheets face a difficult position reconciling their liberal outlook with many of the islamic values practised in this country, the position of women being one of them. No doubt Ms Walker breathes a convenient sigh of relief that she wasn't born to wear the burkha.

I suggest you write to Baroness Warsi, and ask her for her opinion about the status of muslim women - she would probably be able to give you a better insight, however I think your claims are disingenuous; a lot of Asian girls are working and studying for high-profile and well-paid jobs and careers. They are not forced to wear a burka. Other women choose to as a matter of personal choice, and others are forced to by domineering husbands.
However the 'position of women' depends very much on how individuals choose to treat the women in their lives - which, oddly enough, is exactly the same as in our culture.
Undoubtedly there is sexism within Islam, and undoubtedly there is sexism within western culture. For every man who forces his wife to wear a Burkha, there will be a western counterpart giving his **** a slap for wearing a short skirt.
I trust that you treat the women in your own life with respect.

"Did you know - Quran (4:34) orders a man to beat his wife if she doesn't obey him?
Quran 4:34: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

ms walker wrote:

thecitygent wrote: Sorry, for the record thought it worth pointing out that this household has the FT, Indie and Guardian delivered. I wasn't aware that any of them had a particular stance about muslims. However I do sense that the progressive broadsheets face a difficult position reconciling their liberal outlook with many of the islamic values practised in this country, the position of women being one of them. No doubt Ms Walker breathes a convenient sigh of relief that she wasn't born to wear the burkha.

I suggest you write to Baroness Warsi, and ask her for her opinion about the status of muslim women - she would probably be able to give you a better insight, however I think your claims are disingenuous; a lot of Asian girls are working and studying for high-profile and well-paid jobs and careers. They are not forced to wear a burka. Other women choose to as a matter of personal choice, and others are forced to by domineering husbands. However the 'position of women' depends very much on how individuals choose to treat the women in their lives - which, oddly enough, is exactly the same as in our culture. Undoubtedly there is sexism within Islam, and undoubtedly there is sexism within western culture. For every man who forces his wife to wear a Burkha, there will be a western counterpart giving his **** a slap for wearing a short skirt. I trust that you treat the women in your own life with respect.

Of course Ms Walker, thank you for your insights. Interesting to note the findings of the survey conducted by the Exploring Islam Foundation. Sounds to me that Ms Walker (aka Ms Contrary) has her work cut out to persuade the majority of the British populace of her views. I find the reference to 'a lot of Asian girls' rather interesting. Firstly let's distinguish between Indians and Pakistanis and then let's compare rates of economic participation by females across all ethnic groups. I have friends and family members engaged in education and health work in Bradford and their observations do not support your argument. I have seen for myself the levels of aspiration among Muslim girls at my daughters' school. Oh well, looks like another day of blistering sunshine Ms Walker.

ms walker wrote:

thecitygent wrote: Sorry, for the record thought it worth pointing out that this household has the FT, Indie and Guardian delivered. I wasn't aware that any of them had a particular stance about muslims. However I do sense that the progressive broadsheets face a difficult position reconciling their liberal outlook with many of the islamic values practised in this country, the position of women being one of them. No doubt Ms Walker breathes a convenient sigh of relief that she wasn't born to wear the burkha.

I suggest you write to Baroness Warsi, and ask her for her opinion about the status of muslim women - she would probably be able to give you a better insight, however I think your claims are disingenuous; a lot of Asian girls are working and studying for high-profile and well-paid jobs and careers. They are not forced to wear a burka. Other women choose to as a matter of personal choice, and others are forced to by domineering husbands. However the 'position of women' depends very much on how individuals choose to treat the women in their lives - which, oddly enough, is exactly the same as in our culture. Undoubtedly there is sexism within Islam, and undoubtedly there is sexism within western culture. For every man who forces his wife to wear a Burkha, there will be a western counterpart giving his **** a slap for wearing a short skirt. I trust that you treat the women in your own life with respect.

One final observation before I rush off to work... as a measure of social assimilation (as opposed to just economic participation) I find it noteworthy that the number of Pakistani girls marrying out of their 'community' is remarkably low. Much less for example than females from other ethnic groups. Why do you think that is, Ms Walker?

Please read the Bible before you quote any more from the Quran. Both books make ridiculous outdated statements. Please try to be a bit more openminded. You only seem to find fault in one side. I suggest you start with Leviticus.

Those of you attacking the Quran for making offensive comments might try reading the following which was areply to somebody using the Bible as a reason for action.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?


2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?


3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.


4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?


6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?


7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.
19:27. How should they die?


9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?


10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them?
Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Billcliff wrote:
Please read the Bible before you quote any more from the Quran. Both books make ridiculous outdated statements. Please try to be a bit more openminded. You only seem to find fault in one side. I suggest you start with Leviticus.

Quod erat demonstrandum: 'Both books make ridiculous outdated statements.' You thereby hit it on the head. The issue for me is that 'certain communities' blindly follow grossly outdated dogma and superstitions. It appears to me - and a pretty large proportion of the UK population - that muslim doctrine is irrelevant and at odds to building a prosperous, modern and libertarian society. If Bradford children spent more time getting educated in the basics instead of being forced to learn/recite the koran by rote we might have grounds for optimism about future wealth creation in the city.

Billcliff wrote:
Those of you attacking the Quran for making offensive comments might try reading the following which was areply to somebody using the Bible as a reason for action. 1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? 2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? 3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. 4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? 5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it? 6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination? 7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here? 8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? 9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? 10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

But how many people use the Bible as a reason for action in this city or in the UK? Sorry, can I be forgiven for thinking that ours is a secular society? We can be dismissive of the Bible but do those of a muslim heritage really possess that freedom of thought with regards to the koran?

Ours is not a secular society - you are wrong. Catholics can't marry the next in line to the throne - we are officially a Christian country - The Queen is our Head of State and Head of The Church of England. The Bible is the book Christians base their religion. The fact is that some people do take the bible literally and use it to justify their actions/attitudes. Probably as many - if not more than Muslims in the UK. My local church was offering "Bible readings" last night. Would you believe some people even quote the Quran to justify their actions. You can't quote from one book and then completely dismiss the Bible as being irrelevant without recognising that all ancient religious books have outdated quotes that their followers use to justify their actions. Because you & I can see that the Bible usually is nonsense doesn't mean that we don't have fundamental Christians who try to change our laws etc. to match their religious beliefs. Check out the protest against abortion.
Again I urge you to stop reading about Bradford and get out and mix. You'll find that the majority of Muslims have similar aims and aspirations as you and your family and are annoyed by their extremists. I'm sure you'll find one or two "white english" who you'd wish weren't living near you and supporting your views

Billcliff wrote:
Ours is not a secular society - you are wrong. Catholics can't marry the next in line to the throne - we are officially a Christian country - The Queen is our Head of State and Head of The Church of England. The Bible is the book Christians base their religion. The fact is that some people do take the bible literally and use it to justify their actions/attitudes. Probably as many - if not more than Muslims in the UK. My local church was offering "Bible readings" last night. Would you believe some people even quote the Quran to justify their actions. You can't quote from one book and then completely dismiss the Bible as being irrelevant without recognising that all ancient religious books have outdated quotes that their followers use to justify their actions. Because you & I can see that the Bible usually is nonsense doesn't mean that we don't have fundamental Christians who try to change our laws etc. to match their religious beliefs. Check out the protest against abortion. Again I urge you to stop reading about Bradford and get out and mix. You'll find that the majority of Muslims have similar aims and aspirations as you and your family and are annoyed by their extremists. I'm sure you'll find one or two "white english" who you'd wish weren't living near you and supporting your views

Let's not pretend that the CoE or any other Christain group is subverting the state. Similarly don't lecture me about 'getting out and mixing' in Bradford as if your own experience and paradign is somehow superior. I know the city and its inhabitants well enough thank you.

Let's not pretend that the CoE or any other Christain group is subverting the state. Similarly don't lecture me about 'getting out and mixing' in Bradford as if your own experience and paradigM is somehow superior. I know the city and its inhabitants well enough thank you.

Billcliff wrote:
Please read the Bible before you quote any more from the Quran. Both books make ridiculous outdated statements. Please try to be a bit more openminded. You only seem to find fault in one side. I suggest you start with Leviticus.

I repeat, "I do not follow the bible or any other religious text", the quote that I posted was relevant to the post that it followed.
There are indeed idiots who take the word of the bible and use it as an excuse and example for savagery but there a whole lot more who do the same with the koran.

Billcliff wrote:
Those of you attacking the Quran for making offensive comments might try reading the following which was areply to somebody using the Bible as a reason for action.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?


2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?


3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.


4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?


6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?


7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.
19:27. How should they die?


9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?


10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them?
Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Read the headline at the top of the thread and read the report underneath it!
I have no time for the bible but this isnt about it either, it is however developing into a tit for tat yah boo event.

Albion you are at it again.... you are not retired, and you know why you spend so much time at home reporting on every thread - some thoughts for you both.

1. If assimiliation in Indian communities is more apparent it is because they are Indian, Muslim coimmunities from india, in particular the Gujerati community are highly succesful. The point is it is not the religion that holds them back.

2. Pakistani communities have to a degree (and mostly in Bradford) struggled at assimiliation, not because of they're religion but moreover because they were a country borne from a seperation in the 40's . A young country without an established history or political structure. Most of the Pakistani's who came/come to this country come from a few rural areas of the North and North West. They are not representative of all Pakistani's nevertheless in most of the country have proved to be hugely economically and socially succesful.

3. We sowed our own seeds - we are the children of an empire designed to create a global ecomnomy - like it or lump it City Gent (how you have destroyed a great publication) THEY ARE HERE BECAUSE WE WERE THERE.

4. Islam is not Monolothic - before Albions wheels his chair for his dictionary, what that means it is not a singular entity. Islamic countries in SE Asia are vastly different socially, ecnomically, religiously to the Indian sub continent or the Middle East.

5. Issues in regards mis-treatment ofwomen, first cousin marriages, etc exist in economiclly deprived, agrarian societies. Sikh communities suffer forced marriage issues as do Sri Lankan's. South America has a high propensity for domestic violence, and women slavery as does Thailand. None of them are Muslim.

6. Islamism i.e the philosophy that Islam should be state political entity and givern, Is a relatively new phenomonen, it is different to Jihadism which is the Apocolyptic view that one should fight to the death against anyone who does not follow a narrow creed. Islamism was borne out of colonioalism and the threat to the way of life of many Muslims, particularly in India (now Pakistan). Catholic and C of E missionaries went to those countries under the creed that Western ecnomic growth was divine, and until everyone converted to Christianity they would be lost.

Therefore this type of myopic and aggressive conversion process created many reactionary and violent groups, many of them are the ones that we are struggling with now. This of course is not the only reason, but significant to this debate.

Narrow minded religios views = aggressive reactionary groups & speculative, suspicious,
conspiitorial reations.

Let me make it clear - coloniolism with religous undertakings = North India's growing reactionary groups, (Salaafi's) Egypts Islamic brotherhood etc.

Aggressive Islamic groups like Al Muhijaorun, Al Qaeda, Taliban et al = Albion and City Gent.

I understand how you feel, your views are understandable, and born out of fear - but please don't make them out like they are new - you are just part of history re-writing itself.

Think on.

muppetattack wrote:
Albion you are at it again.... you are not retired, and you know why you spend so much time at home reporting on every thread - some thoughts for you both.

1. If assimiliation in Indian communities is more apparent it is because they are Indian, Muslim coimmunities from india, in particular the Gujerati community are highly succesful. The point is it is not the religion that holds them back.

2. Pakistani communities have to a degree (and mostly in Bradford) struggled at assimiliation, not because of they're religion but moreover because they were a country borne from a seperation in the 40's . A young country without an established history or political structure. Most of the Pakistani's who came/come to this country come from a few rural areas of the North and North West. They are not representative of all Pakistani's nevertheless in most of the country have proved to be hugely economically and socially succesful.

3. We sowed our own seeds - we are the children of an empire designed to create a global ecomnomy - like it or lump it City Gent (how you have destroyed a great publication) THEY ARE HERE BECAUSE WE WERE THERE.

4. Islam is not Monolothic - before Albions wheels his chair for his dictionary, what that means it is not a singular entity. Islamic countries in SE Asia are vastly different socially, ecnomically, religiously to the Indian sub continent or the Middle East.

5. Issues in regards mis-treatment ofwomen, first cousin marriages, etc exist in economiclly deprived, agrarian societies. Sikh communities suffer forced marriage issues as do Sri Lankan's. South America has a high propensity for domestic violence, and women slavery as does Thailand. None of them are Muslim.

6. Islamism i.e the philosophy that Islam should be state political entity and givern, Is a relatively new phenomonen, it is different to Jihadism which is the Apocolyptic view that one should fight to the death against anyone who does not follow a narrow creed. Islamism was borne out of colonioalism and the threat to the way of life of many Muslims, particularly in India (now Pakistan). Catholic and C of E missionaries went to those countries under the creed that Western ecnomic growth was divine, and until everyone converted to Christianity they would be lost.

Therefore this type of myopic and aggressive conversion process created many reactionary and violent groups, many of them are the ones that we are struggling with now. This of course is not the only reason, but significant to this debate.

Narrow minded religios views = aggressive reactionary groups & speculative, suspicious,
conspiitorial reations.

Let me make it clear - coloniolism with religous undertakings = North India's growing reactionary groups, (Salaafi's) Egypts Islamic brotherhood etc.

Aggressive Islamic groups like Al Muhijaorun, Al Qaeda, Taliban et al = Albion and City Gent.

I understand how you feel, your views are understandable, and born out of fear - but please don't make them out like they are new - you are just part of history re-writing itself.

Think on.

I have been retired for a good few years and after reading that load of drivel it feels it feels like a good few more!

There you go, two "feels"!

Thanks for the thesis and I am so grateful that you appreciate my concerns. Thanks also for the assurance that we feature in a historical dialectic. No doubt everything will come good in the end. Just a shame that we are in such a mess to start with.

PS How have I destroyed a great publication? What are you on about?

albion wrote:
There you go, two "feels"!

He or she's made a better point than you, Albion. Hardly drivel, particularly compared to your own weak argument.

ms walker wrote:

albion wrote:
There you go, two "feels"!

He or she's made a better point than you, Albion. Hardly drivel, particularly compared to your own weak argument.

Yes youre quite right, people will be mistaking my posts for yours if I dont make more of an effort.

You're trying so hard to spread hatred of Islam, citygent. What's in it for you? Why do you feel the need to harangue and indoctrinate other people against something you know so little about? You say you know this city and its people? I don't think you can, because otherwise you wouldn't talk so hatefully about a group of people who are as different from each other as you and I are.

You're trying so hard to spread hatred of Islam, citygent. What's in it for you? Why do you feel the need to harangue and indoctrinate other people against something you know so little about? You say you know this city and its people? I don't think you can, because otherwise you wouldn't talk so hatefully about a group of people who are as different from each other as you and I are.

albion wrote:

ms walker wrote:

albion wrote:
There you go, two "feels"!

He or she's made a better point than you, Albion. Hardly drivel, particularly compared to your own weak argument.

Yes youre quite right, people will be mistaking my posts for yours if I dont make more of an effort.

oh, shut up you old meanie and buy some shoes that don't pinch.

ms walker wrote:
You're trying so hard to spread hatred of Islam, citygent. What's in it for you? Why do you feel the need to harangue and indoctrinate other people against something you know so little about? You say you know this city and its people? I don't think you can, because otherwise you wouldn't talk so hatefully about a group of people who are as different from each other as you and I are.

Oh to have your superior intelligence and piety. What's in it for you sharing your wisdom?

thecitygent wrote:

ms walker wrote:
You're trying so hard to spread hatred of Islam, citygent. What's in it for you? Why do you feel the need to harangue and indoctrinate other people against something you know so little about? You say you know this city and its people? I don't think you can, because otherwise you wouldn't talk so hatefully about a group of people who are as different from each other as you and I are.

Oh to have your superior intelligence and piety. What's in it for you sharing your wisdom?

What's in it for me? I'm trying to make the world a nicer, fairer place. I'm trying to contribute, rather than detract. I'm trying to give credit where it's due and to treat people as I would wish to be treated. My rewards are manifold :-) but they aren't financial.
So what do you get from animosity, negativity and hatred, city gent? You haven't answered.

ms walker wrote:

thecitygent wrote:

ms walker wrote: You're trying so hard to spread hatred of Islam, citygent. What's in it for you? Why do you feel the need to harangue and indoctrinate other people against something you know so little about? You say you know this city and its people? I don't think you can, because otherwise you wouldn't talk so hatefully about a group of people who are as different from each other as you and I are.

Oh to have your superior intelligence and piety. What's in it for you sharing your wisdom?

What's in it for me? I'm trying to make the world a nicer, fairer place. I'm trying to contribute, rather than detract. I'm trying to give credit where it's due and to treat people as I would wish to be treated. My rewards are manifold :-) but they aren't financial. So what do you get from animosity, negativity and hatred, city gent? You haven't answered.

Ms Walker you are a saint. You provide such entertainment. Sweet dreams.

What do you get from your bitterness, animosity, negativity and hatred, city gent? Come on, out with it.

Oh Ms Walker you sound so much like a nursery school teacher admonishing your children. It is that same nursery class prism that applies to your observations and tone of remarks on these message boards. I guess that some children never grow out of playing teachers.

smm3511 wrote:
Wake up, never mind this ignorance and minority crap some people are posting, what ever happened to free speech do you remember the old sayings and nursery rymes because your kids will NOT small things like black board, ba ba black sheep the fact that police are asking landlords to ban people from their local bars from wearing their 3 lions England football shirts because other people find it racial, come on wake the **** up. I am happy to say that i now live in another country as an immigrant the only differance is i did it legally and accept the laws of their land, i always said i would never give up my British passport but i am second guessing myself rite now.

The very definition of gullible....

There IS no "ban" on Baa Baa Black Sheep. My daughter goes to a school which is indeed has mostly non-white pupils, and it's the nursery's favourite song...

There IS no "ban" on blackboards.. simply technology has done away with the need and they use SMART boards, because they can double as computer screens.

There's no ban on "Christmas" trees, or lights, or cards.. indeed in my mostly Muslim area, all our neighbours send and receive cards and the kids all take part in the school nativity, all the aprents attend and are all very respectful of the ALL the traditions...

and finally.. there IS no flipping "ban" on England flags, or shirts, or indeed anything remotely resembling anything that The Sun or Daily Fail might have "reported" on...

So much ignorance



In other news... billcliff, your posts are MOST refreshing, and are a pleasure to see :)

If one should Google the question "is there a ban on baa baa black sheep?" The Timesonline website does say that such a ban was used in Oxfordshire, changing the question to "christmas trees" and Wikipedia suggests that in some areas of the UK the use of the word "christmas" has been purposely declined, changing the Question to "england flags" produces a large number of examples, and I didnt even bother to trouble The Sun or Daily Mail!

Oh come now Albion, the truth and the media rarely actually coincide... Just because some medias report that so-and-so "well-meaning" but ill-informed councils decide to stop using particular things/sayings/whate
ver does NOT mean that they have solid grounds for it, or indeed that this has even happened in the first place!...and please don't insult your own intelligence by using Wikipedia... bearing in mind it's self written :|

The word "Christmas" isn't used anywhere near as much, this tends to be the case these days...I also refuse to use the word "Christmas", as I don't believe in "Christ"..I prefer to use Xmas, (hence me putting it in inverts).. and let's face it...Xmas trees and such like is PAGAN, nothing whatsoever to do with "Christanity" so why on earth would Muslims have any problem with that????....

Google will come up with anything that anyone has written about, even a persons own opinion... I could Google in the same way, and find plenty of examples that show the exact opposite of those things to be "true"... so who would be right?...one would indeed be very foolish to just take things written on the web to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, would you agree?...

I'm afraid this is rather like a very big game of cat and mouse.

I think that billcliffs very sound advice of actually getting out and tasting a bit of different cultures might do quite a few the WORLD of good... instead of sitting in their insular "you're not English so you can't come in" lives.

As I spent more than thirty years working in peoples homes in Bradford, many of those homes being those of immigrants and many of my colleagues being offspring of immigrants and also (partly at the same time) being in business in Bradford and employing persons from a variety of backgrounds I dont consider that I live an insular life.
I could have quoted numerous other examples and sources in reply to your points, but as you seem unable to accept any information unless it agrees with your own preconceived ideas there would it seems be little or no point.

albion wrote:
As I spent more than thirty years working in peoples homes in Bradford, many of those homes being those of immigrants and many of my colleagues being offspring of immigrants and also (partly at the same time) being in business in Bradford and employing persons from a variety of backgrounds I dont consider that I live an insular life.
I could have quoted numerous other examples and sources in reply to your points, but as you seem unable to accept any information unless it agrees with your own preconceived ideas there would it seems be little or no point.

Well we agree on something then.. because I have exactly the same views on yourself :)

Just quoting "Google" and "wiki" are hardly reliable "sources"... not much official about either of them... and the same goes for papers, as they only "report" on things they get wind of.. some truthful... others not so.. how does one know the difference? How do you tell what is an urban myth, and what isn't?...Have you actually got personal experience of these "bans" to throw into the mix? or are you just going on heresay and PC hysteria...?.. as I said, I could quite easily "Google" my own version of the questions and get just as many opposite "truths"...

So ALL sources of information are false except those that YOU choose to believe!......I see.