Bishop of Bradford's plea to city MPs on new bid to curb church metal thefts (From Bradford Telegraph and Argus)

It's a bit surprising to see that a Bishop is less out of touch with the public than our elected representatives. I think it's an excellent suggestion. If waste contractors have a similar scheme, why not scrap dealers?

If it's so unworkable, why doesn't Galloway suggest something that would work? Or is he only interested in suggestions from female muslim group or a Venezuelan political group.
Whatever he said during the election, it seems that Galloway doesn't actually care about the real concerns of his constituents.

I'm not so sure about this. If a scrap metal thief has a load to trade in, say a whole flat-bed wagon load, then just getting paid by cheque does not mean that he will get caught for thieving. The scrap merchant would have to inspect his load and decide if anything is dodgy. The thief can always claim ignorance if a stolen object is found in a load he tried to sell because like as not it is in with a load of legitamate stuff. If the scrap dealer cannot inspect the load when it arrives but pays by account or bankers draft and a stolen item is found in the load then the thief can still claim that it was not their when he dropped off the load so it must have been planted. Some of these scrap sales involve cash payments for huge skips of metal and most scrapyards I've been round are completely chaotic. It'll be a nightmare to administer. The only way to catch them is in the act.

"When contacted by the Telegraph & Argus yesterday, Mr Davies said the Government had already outlawed cash payments for scrap metal under the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act, which is due to come into force on December 3. However, the ban on cash payments does not apply to itinerant collectors under the new law."
Waste of time then.

so if you follow these guidelines that scrap metal i took to the scrapyard after work on my house could get me in trouble, or i could even be left with yards of old copper pipes, lead pipes and the old copper boiler? what happened to the old "must do more recycling" brigade?
i assume most of the metal theft from churches is strips of lead flashing if its letting in water, in which case the dealer should be responsible for refusing it and the council for policing the scrap yards through inspections on a regular basis. how would an honest person come across this flashing to take to a dealer? a call to the church it has supposedly come from to find out if the seller is legit would take only a minute by the dealer, and if its not legit then it is confiscated by the dealer and a call made to the police to come and pick up the seller. you can't have a blanket law to cover the likes of myself selling my own scrap from renovation work/replacing old central heating.

I think we should stop **** footing around cash and non-cash payments. If the scrap dealers and goldsmiths were honest they could stop thieves and robbers in their tracks by refusing to buy stolen gold and scrap metals.. There is a lot of money being made by your so-called bonafide dealers....

johnhem wrote:
so if you follow these guidelines that scrap metal i took to the scrapyard after work on my house could get me in trouble, or i could even be left with yards of old copper pipes, lead pipes and the old copper boiler? what happened to the old "must do more recycling" brigade?
i assume most of the metal theft from churches is strips of lead flashing if its letting in water, in which case the dealer should be responsible for refusing it and the council for policing the scrap yards through inspections on a regular basis. how would an honest person come across this flashing to take to a dealer? a call to the church it has supposedly come from to find out if the seller is legit would take only a minute by the dealer, and if its not legit then it is confiscated by the dealer and a call made to the police to come and pick up the seller. you can't have a blanket law to cover the likes of myself selling my own scrap from renovation work/replacing old central heating.

They would pay you by cheque instead of cash, that's the only difference.

They can't do that you would put a lot of Rag and Bone men out of work. A better suggestion is have trade plates for scrap dealers so they can only trade in certain areas like taxi's have. The majority of thefts of metal come from out side the Bradford, West Yorkshire area. So that will be easier for Police to identify. It would be easier then if a Rag and Bone man is caught with illegal property then they can revoke his licence and get a conviction add to that if they have a conviction they can no-longer trade.

Stealing from churches is an absolute disgrace and the people who buy the stuff are as bad as the thieves.

Albion. wrote:

johnhem wrote:
so if you follow these guidelines that scrap metal i took to the scrapyard after work on my house could get me in trouble, or i could even be left with yards of old copper pipes, lead pipes and the old copper boiler? what happened to the old "must do more recycling" brigade?
i assume most of the metal theft from churches is strips of lead flashing if its letting in water, in which case the dealer should be responsible for refusing it and the council for policing the scrap yards through inspections on a regular basis. how would an honest person come across this flashing to take to a dealer? a call to the church it has supposedly come from to find out if the seller is legit would take only a minute by the dealer, and if its not legit then it is confiscated by the dealer and a call made to the police to come and pick up the seller. you can't have a blanket law to cover the likes of myself selling my own scrap from renovation work/replacing old central heating.

They would pay you by cheque instead of cash, that's the only difference.

i could have lived with that albion. a cheque would have done nicely, still money in my pocket at the end of the day.
i stick by what i say about the lead flashing though, if thats brought to a dealer he should be responsible for taking id, checking on where it came from and if it was legit or not. a reputable scrap/rag and bone man would not mind waiting a day for his payment while it is checked out, that his story of where it came from was true, so no worries for the dealer about a visit from the authorities if alls above board. if this is going to happen when the lead thieves go to the scrapyard they will have no proof of right to be weighing it in, so nowhere to take it at all. so much could be done by the scrapyard owners, they just need the will to do it or the weight of the law when they pay a surprise visit.

"But yet this is not only the necessary cause of stealing. There is another, which, as I suppose, is proper and peculiar to you Englishmen alone. What is that, quoth the Cardinal ? forsooth my lord (quoth I), your sheep that were wont to be so meek and tame, and so small eaters, now, as I heard say, be become so great devourers and so wild, that they eat up, and swallow down the very men themselves. They consume, destroy, and devour whole fields, houses, and cities. For look in what parts of the realm doth grow the finest, and therefore dearest wool, there noble men, and gentlemen, yea and certain Abbots, holy men no doubt, not contenting themselves with the yearly revenues and profits, that were wont to grow to their forefathers and predecessors of their lands, nor being content that they live in rest and pleasure nothing profiting, yea much noying the weal public, leave no ground for tillage: they inclose all into pastures, they throw down houses, they pluck down towns, and leave nothing standing, but only the church to be made a sheephouse. And as though you lost no small quantity of ground by forests, chases, lawns, and parks, those good holy men turn all dwelling places and all glebeland into desolation and wilderness. Therefore that one covetous and unsatiable cormorant and very plague of his native country may compass about and inclose many thousand acres of ground together within one pale or hedge, the husbandmen be thrust out of their own, or else either by coveyne and fraud, or by violent oppression they be put besides it, or by wrongs and injuries they be so wearied, that they be compelled to sell all: by one means therefore or by other, either by hook or crook they must needs depart away, poor, silly, wretched souls, men, women, husbands, wives, fatherless children, widows, woful mothers, with their young babes, and their whole household small in substance and much in number, as husbandry requireth many hands. Away they trudge, I say, out of their known and accustomed houses, finding no place to rest in. All their household stuff, which is very little worth, though it might well abide the sale, yet being suddenly thrust out, they be constrained to sell it for a thing of nought. And when they have wandered abroad, till that be spent, what can they then else do but steal, and then justly pardy be hanged, or else go about a begging. And yet then also they be cast in prison as vagabonds, because they go about and work not: whom no man will set a work, though they never so willingly proffer themselves thereto. For one Shepherd or Herdman is enough to eat up that ground with cattle to the occupying whereof about husbandry many hands were requisite. And this is also the cause why victuals be now in many places dearer. Yea, besides this the price of wool is so risen, that poor folks, which were wont to work it, and make cloth thereof, be now able to buy none at all. And by this means very many be forced to forsake work, and to give themselves to idleness. For after that so much ground was inclosed for pasture, an infinite multitude of sheep died of the rot, such vengeance God took of their inordinate and unsatiable covetousness, sending among the sheep that pestiferous murrain, which much more justly should have fallen on the sheepmasters' own heads. And though the number of sheep increase never so fast, yet the price falleth not one mite, because there be so few sellers. For they be almost all comen into a few rich men's hands, whom no need forceth to sell before they ****, and they **** not before they may sell as dear as they ****. Now the same cause bringeth in like dearth of the other kinds of cattle, yea and that so much the more, because that after farms plucked down, and husbandry decayed, there is no man that passeth for the breeding of young store. For these rich men bring not up the young ones of great cattle as they do lambs. But first they buy them abroad very cheap, and afterwards when they be fatted in their pastures, they sell them again exceeding dear. And therefore (as I suppose) the whole incommodity hereof is not yet felt. For yet they make dearth only in those places, where they sell. But when they shall fetch them away from thence where they be bred faster than they can be brought up, then shall there also be felt great dearth, store beginning there to fail, where the ware is bought. Thus the unreasonable covetousness of a few hath turned that thing to the utter undoing of your island, in the which thing the chief felicity of your realm did consist. For this great dearth of victuals causeth men to keep as little houses, and as small hospitality as they possibly may, and to put away their servants, whither, I pray you, but a begging, or else (which these gentle bloods, and stout stomacks, will sooner set their minds unto) a stealing? Now, to amend the matter, to this wretched beggary and miserable poverty is joined great wantonness, importunate superfluity, and excessive riot. For not only gentlemen's servants, but also handicraft men, yea and almost the ploughmen of the country, with all other sorts of people, use much strange and proud newfangleness in their apparel, and too much prodigal riot, and sumptuous fare at their table. Now harlots, stews, and winetaverns, ale houses, and tippling houses, with so many naughty, lewd, and unlawful games, as dice, cards, tables, tennis, bowls, quoits, do not all these send the haunters of them straight a stealing when their money is gone? Cast out these pernicious abominations, make a law, that they, which plucked down farms, and towns of husbandry, shall reedify them, or else yield and uprender the possession thereof to such as will go to the cost of building them anew. Suffer not these rich men to buy up all, to ingross, and forestall, and with their monopoly to keep the market alone as please them. Let not so many be brought up in idleness, let husbandry and tillage be restored, let cloth-working be renewed, that there may be honest labours for this idle sort to pass their time in profitably, which hitherto either poverty hath caused to be thieves, or else now be either vagabonds, or idle serving-men, and shortly will be thieves. Doubtless unless you find a remedy for these enormities, you shall in vain advance yourselves of executing justice upon felons."

Sir Thomas More, Utopia

I don't think that it matters where the theft is, it is a theft. It is that the authorities seem to be powerless to act on the crime. You can't stop people taking scrap to the scrap yard for cash you punish the people who might have a bit of scrap that they want to take in rather than give it to a rag and boneman. If the amount is only small it may be not worth putting it through an account. Or can I hold an account because I'm not registered. Many years ago I did some D.I.Y work and had some scrap I was surprised that it came to £59. Why should I be banned from claiming something that belongs to me?

Another Landless Peasant wrote:
"But yet this is not only the necessary cause of stealing. There is another, which, as I suppose, is proper and peculiar to you Englishmen alone. What is that, quoth the Cardinal ? forsooth my lord (quoth I), your sheep that were wont to be so meek and tame, and so small eaters, now, as I heard say, be become so great devourers and so wild, that they eat up, and swallow down the very men themselves. They consume, destroy, and devour whole fields, houses, and cities. For look in what parts of the realm doth grow the finest, and therefore dearest wool, there noble men, and gentlemen, yea and certain Abbots, holy men no doubt, not contenting themselves with the yearly revenues and profits, that were wont to grow to their forefathers and predecessors of their lands, nor being content that they live in rest and pleasure nothing profiting, yea much noying the weal public, leave no ground for tillage: they inclose all into pastures, they throw down houses, they pluck down towns, and leave nothing standing, but only the church to be made a sheephouse. And as though you lost no small quantity of ground by forests, chases, lawns, and parks, those good holy men turn all dwelling places and all glebeland into desolation and wilderness. Therefore that one covetous and unsatiable cormorant and very plague of his native country may compass about and inclose many thousand acres of ground together within one pale or hedge, the husbandmen be thrust out of their own, or else either by coveyne and fraud, or by violent oppression they be put besides it, or by wrongs and injuries they be so wearied, that they be compelled to sell all: by one means therefore or by other, either by hook or crook they must needs depart away, poor, silly, wretched souls, men, women, husbands, wives, fatherless children, widows, woful mothers, with their young babes, and their whole household small in substance and much in number, as husbandry requireth many hands. Away they trudge, I say, out of their known and accustomed houses, finding no place to rest in. All their household stuff, which is very little worth, though it might well abide the sale, yet being suddenly thrust out, they be constrained to sell it for a thing of nought. And when they have wandered abroad, till that be spent, what can they then else do but steal, and then justly pardy be hanged, or else go about a begging. And yet then also they be cast in prison as vagabonds, because they go about and work not: whom no man will set a work, though they never so willingly proffer themselves thereto. For one Shepherd or Herdman is enough to eat up that ground with cattle to the occupying whereof about husbandry many hands were requisite. And this is also the cause why victuals be now in many places dearer. Yea, besides this the price of wool is so risen, that poor folks, which were wont to work it, and make cloth thereof, be now able to buy none at all. And by this means very many be forced to forsake work, and to give themselves to idleness. For after that so much ground was inclosed for pasture, an infinite multitude of sheep died of the rot, such vengeance God took of their inordinate and unsatiable covetousness, sending among the sheep that pestiferous murrain, which much more justly should have fallen on the sheepmasters' own heads. And though the number of sheep increase never so fast, yet the price falleth not one mite, because there be so few sellers. For they be almost all comen into a few rich men's hands, whom no need forceth to sell before they ****, and they **** not before they may sell as dear as they ****. Now the same cause bringeth in like dearth of the other kinds of cattle, yea and that so much the more, because that after farms plucked down, and husbandry decayed, there is no man that passeth for the breeding of young store. For these rich men bring not up the young ones of great cattle as they do lambs. But first they buy them abroad very cheap, and afterwards when they be fatted in their pastures, they sell them again exceeding dear. And therefore (as I suppose) the whole incommodity hereof is not yet felt. For yet they make dearth only in those places, where they sell. But when they shall fetch them away from thence where they be bred faster than they can be brought up, then shall there also be felt great dearth, store beginning there to fail, where the ware is bought. Thus the unreasonable covetousness of a few hath turned that thing to the utter undoing of your island, in the which thing the chief felicity of your realm did consist. For this great dearth of victuals causeth men to keep as little houses, and as small hospitality as they possibly may, and to put away their servants, whither, I pray you, but a begging, or else (which these gentle bloods, and stout stomacks, will sooner set their minds unto) a stealing? Now, to amend the matter, to this wretched beggary and miserable poverty is joined great wantonness, importunate superfluity, and excessive riot. For not only gentlemen's servants, but also handicraft men, yea and almost the ploughmen of the country, with all other sorts of people, use much strange and proud newfangleness in their apparel, and too much prodigal riot, and sumptuous fare at their table. Now harlots, stews, and winetaverns, ale houses, and tippling houses, with so many naughty, lewd, and unlawful games, as dice, cards, tables, tennis, bowls, quoits, do not all these send the haunters of them straight a stealing when their money is gone? Cast out these pernicious abominations, make a law, that they, which plucked down farms, and towns of husbandry, shall reedify them, or else yield and uprender the possession thereof to such as will go to the cost of building them anew. Suffer not these rich men to buy up all, to ingross, and forestall, and with their monopoly to keep the market alone as please them. Let not so many be brought up in idleness, let husbandry and tillage be restored, let cloth-working be renewed, that there may be honest labours for this idle sort to pass their time in profitably, which hitherto either poverty hath caused to be thieves, or else now be either vagabonds, or idle serving-men, and shortly will be thieves. Doubtless unless you find a remedy for these enormities, you shall in vain advance yourselves of executing justice upon felons." Sir Thomas More, Utopia

Forsooth Sir Thomas me thinks thou hast had your lead flashing perloined and now you have a slate loose.