Bradford Council waste permit plan for residents dubbed 'madness' (From Bradford Telegraph and Argus)
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Bradford Council waste permit plan for residents dubbed 'madness'
6:00am Thursday 21st March 2013 in News
By Claire Armstrong, T&A Reporter
Coun Andrew Thornton
People will have to show a permit proving they are Bradford Council taxpayers before they are allowed to use the authority’s waste tips under controversial new rules which come into force next month.
But the scheme, brought in by the Labour-run authority, has been labelled as “hare-brained” and “costly control-freakery” by other political group leaders who have warned it could lead to more flytipping.
The permits are being introduced with the aim of saving up to £160,000 a year by stopping householders from neighbouring authorities using the district’s dumps to get rid of their rubbish or recycling.
But residents have only been finding out about them in literature attached to their 2013/14 Council Tax bills.
It has left the Council’s Conservative and Liberal Democrat group leaders both condemning the scheme and the way it had been announced.
Tory leader Councillor Glen Miller said: “There has been no correspondence about it, I knew nothing about it.
“This authority seem to do things without thinking them through.”
He said he was worried people would turn up at waste sites without permits, would be refused entry and would then dump their waste outside the gates.
Councillor Jeanelle Sunderland, the Liberal Democrat leader, branded the new scheme “costly control-freakery”.
She said she first learned of the scheme when she read a leaflet which arrived with her council tax bill.
She said: “It’s madness. I thought I was opening my council tax bill on April Fool’s Day.
“It’s an absolutely crazy idea. There’s no way that this is going to work.
“It will lead to an increase in fly-tipping because people just won’t be bothered. And people will just dump stuff in their bins so we will end up with more stuff being sent to landfill.”
Defending the scheme, Councillor Andrew Thornton, the Council’s executive member for environment and sustainability, said: “After monitoring the use of household waste recycling centres, Bradford Council has identified that many people from areas outside the district have been using them. We believe the Council is a net importer.
“Because of the extra waste and extra cost for Bradford council tax payers this generates, we have decided to introduce measures to make sure only Bradford residents can use our facilities in the future.”
But retired resident Bill McKay, of Roundwood Road, Baildon, called it “a sop to bureaucracy and narrowmindedness”. His nearest waste recycling centre is at Guiseley, in Leeds, and he said he felt sure the number of people coming into Bradford to dump waste would be offset by those, like him, who would rather use tips outside the district.
He said local authorities in West Yorkshire should work together rather than enforcing their borders, to make life simpler for residents.
Mr McKay, 63, said he did not believe the permit scheme would save the Council £160,000, once they took into account the costs of issuing the permits, then enforcing them.
Heather Roberts, of Thackley, called the scheme “futile and bureaucratic” and said the Council was putting barriers in the way of recycling. From April 1, anyone wanting to get a permit must visit their local household waste centre with their latest Council tax bill and their driving licence.
They will then be given a free permit, which they must display in their car windscreen to be able to get into any waste sites across the Bradford district.
Kirklees Council has a similar permit scheme in place.
Comments(123)
allannicho
says...
7:30am Thu 21 Mar 13
years now, stops a lot of "White Van Men"!
just put your sticker on your windscreen.
angry bradfordian
says...
7:32am Thu 21 Mar 13
In my case I'll be trying to squeeze as much as I can in the wheelie bin, so they'll still be paying to dispose of it and there will be more going to landfill that I could have recycled.
bantam59
says...
7:39am Thu 21 Mar 13
MORE RUBBISH WASHERS FRIDGES THROWN DOWN COUNTRY LANES NOW
bingleybantam
says...
7:44am Thu 21 Mar 13
Maybe we can turn the Wastefield hole into a fly tipping centre.
angry bradfordian
says...
7:45am Thu 21 Mar 13
allannicho wrote:I seem to remember Leeds were talking about doing the same because they thought Bradford residents were using their tip near Menston.
Had this system in Wakey a few
years now, stops a lot of "White Van Men"!
just put your sticker on your windscreen.
It meant that people in Menston had to travel to Bowling or Keighley to recycle and use loads of fuel in the process. Excellent for the environment!
flashdonut
says...
7:53am Thu 21 Mar 13
Pity Poor Bradford
says...
8:03am Thu 21 Mar 13
Regarding 'White van men', you have to have a permit to be able to take rubbish in a van. I found out when I took some household rubbish to the tip in my 1966 Ford Anglia van, clearly not used for commercial purposes, and was turned away. When that happened I felt like dumping all the rubbish outside, returning in my car, putting it in the boot and driving in, just to make a point.
klp1979
says...
8:05am Thu 21 Mar 13
tinytoonster
says...
8:07am Thu 21 Mar 13
flashdonut wrote:exactly.
Everybody received teh permit letter with their council tax bill. Everybody. You fill in about two questions and take with you when you go to the tip. It is that simple. It really is. Folk need to get a grip. You are acting like it is a task. It isn't.
people don't understand that council's have limits on what waste they should produce.
EU Landfill Directive.
so this is a good idea.
webess
says...
8:14am Thu 21 Mar 13
flashdonut wrote:No it's not that simple.
Everybody received teh permit letter with their council tax bill. Everybody. You fill in about two questions and take with you when you go to the tip. It is that simple. It really is. Folk need to get a grip. You are acting like it is a task. It isn't.
You've to take driving license & council tax bill to waste recycling centre then get a permit. Some of us have already thrown away (recycled of course) our council tax bill.
And what about for example someone who's just moved into the district? They won't yet have a council tax bill and yet they'll have an urgent need to dispose of items from previous occupant.
Bradford council do come in for some stick, much of it unjustified. But this decision is totally bonkers - it will cost more to run, lead to less recycling and more fly tipping!
tinytoonster
says...
8:18am Thu 21 Mar 13
cctv outside them all!!
tyker2
says...
8:19am Thu 21 Mar 13
webess wrote:bonkers indeed and has no regard for those living on the fringes of the authority's power.
flashdonut wrote:No it's not that simple.
Everybody received teh permit letter with their council tax bill. Everybody. You fill in about two questions and take with you when you go to the tip. It is that simple. It really is. Folk need to get a grip. You are acting like it is a task. It isn't.
You've to take driving license & council tax bill to waste recycling centre then get a permit. Some of us have already thrown away (recycled of course) our council tax bill.
And what about for example someone who's just moved into the district? They won't yet have a council tax bill and yet they'll have an urgent need to dispose of items from previous occupant.
Bradford council do come in for some stick, much of it unjustified. But this decision is totally bonkers - it will cost more to run, lead to less recycling and more fly tipping!
danger mouse
says...
8:30am Thu 21 Mar 13
Mike Strutter
says...
8:48am Thu 21 Mar 13
In all seriousness though, how hard is it ? Everyone will have a council tax bill so will have the details. It take 2 mins to fill in and leave permit in glove compartment, job done.
I do however see the point of all WY councils working together instead of creating borders.
It is also astonishing how Cllr Sunderland only found out when she opened her council tax bill !! Isn't she the Deputy leader ? Do they not discuss anything at City Hall ?
webess
says...
8:50am Thu 21 Mar 13
David Shaw
says...
9:02am Thu 21 Mar 13
jjbabs19
says...
9:12am Thu 21 Mar 13
Thee Voice of Reason
says...
9:19am Thu 21 Mar 13
freespeech
says...
9:20am Thu 21 Mar 13
webess
says...
9:20am Thu 21 Mar 13
David Shaw wrote:OK take one example.
Don't see what the fuss is about, I can choose which centre to go to, take my council bill and Driving licence there and hey presto..... Think sometimes people are just obstinate for the sake of it.....
You live in Calverley (Leeds) and work in Bradford centre, normally you drop your rubbish of at Midland Road. Under this cunning plan you'd have to drive to Yeadon, ie opposite direction - obviously many people will just dump in nearest layby and leave the council with a clear up bill.
Joedavid
says...
9:32am Thu 21 Mar 13
Joedavid
says...
9:35am Thu 21 Mar 13
Thee Voice of Reason wrote:It has your photo, name and address on yes I agree just show that as you enter the tip.
Isn't it just easier to take your drivers licence? Surely then they can see you live in the Bradford area and they don't need to hand out thousands of permits.
I guess the tips will need an extra man each to check and issue permits.
TirNaNog
says...
9:36am Thu 21 Mar 13
Mike Strutter wrote:I expect Deanstones Lane and surrounding lanes will suffer if residents of Northowram and Shelf can't use Queensbury tip. Madness!
What next, stopping people from say Shelf (Calderdale) driving on Queensbury roads (Bradford) and adding to the potholes ? In all seriousness though, how hard is it ? Everyone will have a council tax bill so will have the details. It take 2 mins to fill in and leave permit in glove compartment, job done. I do however see the point of all WY councils working together instead of creating borders. It is also astonishing how Cllr Sunderland only found out when she opened her council tax bill !! Isn't she the Deputy leader ? Do they not discuss anything at City Hall ?
Johsay
says...
9:36am Thu 21 Mar 13
misterman
says...
9:45am Thu 21 Mar 13
wobbley-bob
says...
9:48am Thu 21 Mar 13
It could be already filled in with some account/code numbers, & all you do is tear it out like a tax disc & stick it on your windscreen.
That said, why bother, we should be able to dump our rubbish at the nearest tip.
There can't be that many outsiders driving miles into Bradford to use our tips. It doesn't make sense.
webess
says...
9:57am Thu 21 Mar 13
jjbabs19 wrote:Think you've got the wrong end of the stick, this proposal makes it harder to recycle...
Good, I agree with the change. I have bins for household rubbish, paper, metal & glass, bags for the plastic, and garden waste. So I already do, my bit towards recycling. So should others. I personally, am fed up with Bfd. being used as a dumping ground. The majority of which seems to be blown, dropped by irresponcibles individuals, or fly tipped. On my travels, I see little of the latter, compared to what I used to see. Bfd does appear to be cleaning up. We've still a long way to go. This is something new and a really good way forward.
Joedavid
says...
9:58am Thu 21 Mar 13
Pity Poor Bradford wrote:Bowling Back Lane refused me when I put my garden rubbish in my small camping trailer.
I live just over the border in Kirlees, and the Bowling Back Lane depot is nearer to me than the one in Kirklees. As someone who grew up in Bradford the Bowling Back Lane depot is 'my' depot.
Regarding 'White van men', you have to have a permit to be able to take rubbish in a van. I found out when I took some household rubbish to the tip in my 1966 Ford Anglia van, clearly not used for commercial purposes, and was turned away. When that happened I felt like dumping all the rubbish outside, returning in my car, putting it in the boot and driving in, just to make a point.
Bowling Back Lane seems to be anti House holders, a lot better run at Midland road.
markjoe
says...
10:02am Thu 21 Mar 13
Are you able to have 2 permits in case you have 2 cars, I wouldn't have thought so.
This sketch from John Bishop springs to mind: http://youtu.be/N9yA
JKcIVxk?t=1m29s
angry bradfordian
says...
10:11am Thu 21 Mar 13
markjoe wrote:I hope these staff dealing with permits are going to have better customer service skills than the people who currently work there.
This is an excellent way to save on the council budget, extra printing costs for permits, extra staff to check the permits.
Are you able to have 2 permits in case you have 2 cars, I wouldn't have thought so.
This sketch from John Bishop springs to mind: http://youtu.be/N9yA
JKcIVxk?t=1m29s
Some of the blokes who work at the tip in Queensbury are amongst the rudest staff I've ever come across and seem to think they're doing you a favour by letting you use it.
I dread to think how they're going to cope with the power of giving permits out.
Prisoner Cell Block A
says...
10:20am Thu 21 Mar 13
tinytoonster wrote:Ooops, I threw my permit letter in the bin, the same bin I throw every communication from the council into. I didn't use it to clear up after my dog with this piece though, I usually do.
you can tell they don't use it, dump outside?
cctv outside them all!!
Well done BDMC this will be the biggest detriment to our view and environment as you've managed to date.
It really wasn't needed, EU directive or not, just better site management and some lateral thinking.
ertnec
says...
10:21am Thu 21 Mar 13
Adamget
says...
10:25am Thu 21 Mar 13
I have a van too and have had to have an annual permit. It's a good idea and cuts out illegal tipping.
Those who say it will increase are missing a point - those who fly tip will continue to fly tip. This budget saving could release money to attack tha problem.
Unethical_
says...
10:27am Thu 21 Mar 13
The process is simple and easy all you have to do is fill out a simple form and take it down to your local recycling or waste centre it is really that easy.
Its just a way of Bradford Council saving money as they are so naive by thinking that the Bradford population will not be bothered to fill in the forms; and they have done that thus reducing costs but if we really wanted our Council Tax payment to be used and make sure the council would be so naive and clever we would go down to the waste centre and get this permit and smack it back on their face.
As more permits will equal more work for the council whom think no one will be bothered to make permits, so if i was anyone of you lot go down get it made and tell them Up 'ures.
Brannigan
says...
10:28am Thu 21 Mar 13
Surely the council would be better employed in trying to regenerate the refuse tip that is commonly known as the city centre and bring some investment to the area.
collos25
says...
10:39am Thu 21 Mar 13
The_light
says...
10:39am Thu 21 Mar 13
wobbley-bob
says...
10:43am Thu 21 Mar 13
Adamget wrote:Telling porkies are we?
Excellent idea and no hassle at all. I already have my permit - took 5 minutes. I don't want to pay for other LAs' waste and welcome this move.
I have a van too and have had to have an annual permit. It's a good idea and cuts out illegal tipping.
Those who say it will increase are missing a point - those who fly tip will continue to fly tip. This budget saving could release money to attack tha problem.
You haven't 'really' got your permit have you?
How do I know?
Because in big bold type, on my letter, it states...
PERMITS WILL BE AVAILABLE FROM 1 APRIL 2013.
(today is the 21st of march.)
There's only one fool here Adam, & it's you laddie....lol
Now back under your stone eh?
Joedavid
says...
10:47am Thu 21 Mar 13
Adamget wrote:Well they not working their own rules then, says issue from 1st April.
Excellent idea and no hassle at all. I already have my permit - took 5 minutes. I don't want to pay for other LAs' waste and welcome this move.
I have a van too and have had to have an annual permit. It's a good idea and cuts out illegal tipping.
Those who say it will increase are missing a point - those who fly tip will continue to fly tip. This budget saving could release money to attack tha problem.
Foolroy
says...
10:48am Thu 21 Mar 13
The other stuff just gets compacted and hoofed into the green bin...I cannot be ar**d getting clout nails in my tyres up at the tip either.
vax2002
says...
10:49am Thu 21 Mar 13
wobbley-bob
says...
10:52am Thu 21 Mar 13
Joedavid wrote:Take no notice David, he's trolling. ;)
Adamget wrote:Well they not working their own rules then, says issue from 1st April.
Excellent idea and no hassle at all. I already have my permit - took 5 minutes. I don't want to pay for other LAs' waste and welcome this move.
I have a van too and have had to have an annual permit. It's a good idea and cuts out illegal tipping.
Those who say it will increase are missing a point - those who fly tip will continue to fly tip. This budget saving could release money to attack tha problem.
David Shaw
says...
10:55am Thu 21 Mar 13
webess wrote:I am the other way around, Live in Bradford work in Leeds, I take the recycling down every couple of weeks to my local centre, get the kids involved, teaching the next gen etc.... I would bever have thought to use Leeds sites as I dont live in Leeds.
David Shaw wrote:OK take one example.
Don't see what the fuss is about, I can choose which centre to go to, take my council bill and Driving licence there and hey presto..... Think sometimes people are just obstinate for the sake of it.....
You live in Calverley (Leeds) and work in Bradford centre, normally you drop your rubbish of at Midland Road. Under this cunning plan you'd have to drive to Yeadon, ie opposite direction - obviously many people will just dump in nearest layby and leave the council with a clear up bill.
why will there be a sudden spate of fly tipping, will the fabric of society break down because it takes 5 minutes to obtain a permit from your choice of centre. I don't think so.....
webess
says...
10:56am Thu 21 Mar 13
The_light wrote:But if every council implements this, it becomes a zero sum game, plus added costs of admin and extra fly tipping.
I think, like a lot of things now, we take household waste sites for granted. Yes I know we pay for on our council tax but it does cost money to get rid of all our throw away electronics, furniture, and other bulky items. If we didn’t have such facilities provided by local authorities we’d have to pay privately. If Bradford’s waste sites are being used by folk outside the area then the council has a duty to act to protect our finances, therefore they can’t really be criticised for what they are trying to do about this.
On top of this, one of the biggest costs for council waste is the landfill tax...and this is charged nationally.
yezboss
says...
11:04am Thu 21 Mar 13
Walruss
says...
11:05am Thu 21 Mar 13
However, I'm unsure as to whether the pass will admit you to all centres. The declaration states, " . .is only valid to visit Household Waste Recycling Centres". That to me means any in Bradford.
Another part of the form states, " . . to use your Household Waste Recycling Centre."
The form also requires you to indicate which HWRC you wish to use. That could mean you are limited to one.
Which is it?
collos25
says...
11:06am Thu 21 Mar 13
wobbley-bob wrote:He needs a permit to tip rubbish in a white van and has done for a long time.So he is not telling porkies at all.
Adamget wrote:Telling porkies are we?
Excellent idea and no hassle at all. I already have my permit - took 5 minutes. I don't want to pay for other LAs' waste and welcome this move.
I have a van too and have had to have an annual permit. It's a good idea and cuts out illegal tipping.
Those who say it will increase are missing a point - those who fly tip will continue to fly tip. This budget saving could release money to attack tha problem.
You haven't 'really' got your permit have you?
How do I know?
Because in big bold type, on my letter, it states...
PERMITS WILL BE AVAILABLE FROM 1 APRIL 2013.
(today is the 21st of march.)
There's only one fool here Adam, & it's you laddie....lol
Now back under your stone eh?
Not so simple
says...
11:08am Thu 21 Mar 13
Q. So the council will spend how much to save £160,000?
Surely it costs to issue tickets, get the system in place and pay staff for these extra duties.
Waste will be in dumped in places causing the victims to be further charged by the council to take it away....sounds rather poorly thought and rushed to be honest.
Waste of space the council...tip em!
Mr Blondе
says...
11:13am Thu 21 Mar 13
collos25 wrote:He hasn't got a Council permit that everyone needs though.
wobbley-bob wrote:He needs a permit to tip rubbish in a white van and has done for a long time.So he is not telling porkies at all.
Adamget wrote:Telling porkies are we?
Excellent idea and no hassle at all. I already have my permit - took 5 minutes. I don't want to pay for other LAs' waste and welcome this move.
I have a van too and have had to have an annual permit. It's a good idea and cuts out illegal tipping.
Those who say it will increase are missing a point - those who fly tip will continue to fly tip. This budget saving could release money to attack tha problem.
You haven't 'really' got your permit have you?
How do I know?
Because in big bold type, on my letter, it states...
PERMITS WILL BE AVAILABLE FROM 1 APRIL 2013.
(today is the 21st of march.)
There's only one fool here Adam, & it's you laddie....lol
Now back under your stone eh?
I've just been to the Low Moor site to get one, & the bloke there said that they haven't even got them to issue yet, & pointed to the line about them being issued from April the 1st
So, yes, there seems to be a couple of people who are telling tall ones. Why though?, I've no idea, is it just to appear big & clever on a local news rags website? :)
webess
says...
11:14am Thu 21 Mar 13
Apollo
says...
11:20am Thu 21 Mar 13
A reference to the Data Commissioner would stop this in its tracks.
Prisoner Cell Block A
says...
11:29am Thu 21 Mar 13
ertnec wrote:Who is employed to police this?
What a joke, things have had to change and yes it will anoye many. This will stop people who dont live in Bradford from using the service why should they use a service we pay for, unfortunately it will cause more fly tipping to combat this prosecute more and make sure when caught it costs them with very heavy fines or prison. People get a bloody grip.
Certainly not the police, they cannot be trusted not to fly tip themselves as we have seen in this very paper.
Can't be the council, frontline staff cut to the bare minimum.
In times of austerity and cuts is a costly change and implementation necessary?
Finally, shouldn't we welcome more 'rubbish' from everywhere, the last I heard we sold it by the tonne to China who in their wisdom manage to turn it into useful fuel sources and recycle the rest.
Shortsighted, British backward thinking yet again.
Our miniscule, tiny amount of self recycling, household recycling is not even worth doing until the whole world is in unison, until then we are trying to top up the ocean with our body fluids, it isn't making a difference and never will.
Patrick Bateman
says...
11:43am Thu 21 Mar 13
flashdonut wrote:'It's that simple. It really is".
Everybody received teh permit letter with their council tax bill. Everybody. You fill in about two questions and take with you when you go to the tip. It is that simple. It really is. Folk need to get a grip. You are acting like it is a task. It isn't.
You must have received different instructions to everyone else then. You are asked to bring your driving licence and council tax bill with you too. Hardly onerous but a slightly more involved process than you claim.
MeccaBingo1
says...
11:49am Thu 21 Mar 13
I own 2 houses
1 in Huddersfield
1 in Bradford
Driving licence has Huddersfield address on.
Could I use Bradford tip?
Seems stupid to me any time Bradford Council try to do anything it ends up costing us more than before.
Another issue is my Gran also lives in Bradford and I always end up taking garden waste to Low Moor tip for her, she does not drive so how would I get rid of waste for her?
Answer she will propably call council now and they will collect.
Just stupid
In the grand sheme of things £160000 saving is peanuts and will only cost more not less.
Cannot wait to go down to tip after 1st April and have a big ding dong!
How else to save money?
Answers.
Make half of all over paid council workers redunant, stop silly public sector pensions, and give them left a big kick up the bum to get them into the real world!
Public Sector is so fat it needs urgent reform. Firemen, Police, NHS, Teachers, Council Workers all on 100% sick pay for life and final salary pensions, Some Police/Firemen retire at 45 years old!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Guy next door to me was a teacher now retired at 55 year old
Country is going downhill fast
Complete and utter joke
Job done
Thee Voice of Reason
says...
12:00pm Thu 21 Mar 13
Get rid of Tony Reeves.
He's been getting £170k per year since 2006, in that time the City has gone backwards and it a complete dump.
Leeds today opened Trinity Shopping Center, not one Brick has been laid at Westfield. The executive at Leeds might get a similar wage but at least he is providing results.
yorkshiredude
says...
12:29pm Thu 21 Mar 13
webess
says...
12:34pm Thu 21 Mar 13
Parz
says...
12:49pm Thu 21 Mar 13
I can't understand why it's going to cause a wave of flytipping. From the sound of it it's really not going to be hard to get your permit. If people are too feckless to go down to the tip and spend 5 minutes getting hold of thier permit, what's to say they go now anyway? Seriously, it's not exactly a massive effort is it?
Another Landless Peasant
says...
12:52pm Thu 21 Mar 13
collos25
says...
1:01pm Thu 21 Mar 13
Parz wrote:Because human nature dictates that they will not travel long distances to do a chore therefore they will flytip not very hard to work out or is it.
I don't think it's a bad idea. Council ensuring that a taxpayer funded service is used only by those taxypayers funding it. God forbid.
I can't understand why it's going to cause a wave of flytipping. From the sound of it it's really not going to be hard to get your permit. If people are too feckless to go down to the tip and spend 5 minutes getting hold of thier permit, what's to say they go now anyway? Seriously, it's not exactly a massive effort is it?
Gabbysgran
says...
1:02pm Thu 21 Mar 13
johnmu
says...
1:06pm Thu 21 Mar 13
It's easy, unless you have something to hide?
Parz
says...
1:08pm Thu 21 Mar 13
collos25 wrote:Well then they're just feckless and lazy and need to have a word with themselves. You can't blame the council for the inhabitants being inconsiderate cretins who would rather cause a problem for everyone else, making the place look like a sh*t tip instead of putting a bit of effort in.
Parz wrote: I don't think it's a bad idea. Council ensuring that a taxpayer funded service is used only by those taxypayers funding it. God forbid. I can't understand why it's going to cause a wave of flytipping. From the sound of it it's really not going to be hard to get your permit. If people are too feckless to go down to the tip and spend 5 minutes getting hold of thier permit, what's to say they go now anyway? Seriously, it's not exactly a massive effort is it?Because human nature dictates that they will not travel long distances to do a chore therefore they will flytip not very hard to work out or is it.
Ginaflowers
says...
1:24pm Thu 21 Mar 13
collos25
says...
1:30pm Thu 21 Mar 13
Parz wrote:It does not matter what you or I think its a matter of fact like it or not.
collos25 wrote:Well then they're just feckless and lazy and need to have a word with themselves. You can't blame the council for the inhabitants being inconsiderate cretins who would rather cause a problem for everyone else, making the place look like a sh*t tip instead of putting a bit of effort in.
Parz wrote: I don't think it's a bad idea. Council ensuring that a taxpayer funded service is used only by those taxypayers funding it. God forbid. I can't understand why it's going to cause a wave of flytipping. From the sound of it it's really not going to be hard to get your permit. If people are too feckless to go down to the tip and spend 5 minutes getting hold of thier permit, what's to say they go now anyway? Seriously, it's not exactly a massive effort is it?Because human nature dictates that they will not travel long distances to do a chore therefore they will flytip not very hard to work out or is it.
webess
says...
1:41pm Thu 21 Mar 13
Parz wrote:It's inevitable some people will show up without a permit and assuming staff don't take a backhander, they'll be turned away. What do you think people are going to do with a car full of junk?
I don't think it's a bad idea. Council ensuring that a taxpayer funded service is used only by those taxypayers funding it. God forbid.
I can't understand why it's going to cause a wave of flytipping. From the sound of it it's really not going to be hard to get your permit. If people are too feckless to go down to the tip and spend 5 minutes getting hold of thier permit, what's to say they go now anyway? Seriously, it's not exactly a massive effort is it?
Agree most people will just grin and bear this, but if just 1% fly tip - that's an awful lot of extra fly tipping.
Shipleyvegas
says...
1:50pm Thu 21 Mar 13
loftyme
says...
2:17pm Thu 21 Mar 13
webess wrote:Very good point!, a quick google and found this,
Is it legal to restrict access via this permit? The council does have a legal obligation to provide waste services..
Section 1 of the Refuse Disposal Amenity Act 1978
"the council has duty to provide civic amenity sites where residents in the area can deposit their waste",
This is off the dept for environment website, so it would appear that you can take your waste to your local tip without a permit!, just a bradford rule, probably not enforcable
Parz
says...
2:18pm Thu 21 Mar 13
collos25 wrote:I'm not doubting that, but I can't see the need for all the rage against the Council for implimenting a free pass system to try ensure they're not spending OUR money on dealing with stuff dumped at the tips by people who aren't constributing to the system. I think some people just like a good winge.
Parz wrote:It does not matter what you or I think its a matter of fact like it or not.collos25 wrote:Well then they're just feckless and lazy and need to have a word with themselves. You can't blame the council for the inhabitants being inconsiderate cretins who would rather cause a problem for everyone else, making the place look like a sh*t tip instead of putting a bit of effort in.Parz wrote: I don't think it's a bad idea. Council ensuring that a taxpayer funded service is used only by those taxypayers funding it. God forbid. I can't understand why it's going to cause a wave of flytipping. From the sound of it it's really not going to be hard to get your permit. If people are too feckless to go down to the tip and spend 5 minutes getting hold of thier permit, what's to say they go now anyway? Seriously, it's not exactly a massive effort is it?Because human nature dictates that they will not travel long distances to do a chore therefore they will flytip not very hard to work out or is it.
Thee Voice of Reason
says...
2:23pm Thu 21 Mar 13
collos25
says...
2:27pm Thu 21 Mar 13
Parz wrote:Everybody pays in one way or another even its through VAT there is no escaping tax for us mortals. Its already cost thousands so far in just printing alone and will cost many more thousands before its it quietly dropped.
collos25 wrote:I'm not doubting that, but I can't see the need for all the rage against the Council for implimenting a free pass system to try ensure they're not spending OUR money on dealing with stuff dumped at the tips by people who aren't constributing to the system. I think some people just like a good winge.
Parz wrote:It does not matter what you or I think its a matter of fact like it or not.collos25 wrote:Well then they're just feckless and lazy and need to have a word with themselves. You can't blame the council for the inhabitants being inconsiderate cretins who would rather cause a problem for everyone else, making the place look like a sh*t tip instead of putting a bit of effort in.Parz wrote: I don't think it's a bad idea. Council ensuring that a taxpayer funded service is used only by those taxypayers funding it. God forbid. I can't understand why it's going to cause a wave of flytipping. From the sound of it it's really not going to be hard to get your permit. If people are too feckless to go down to the tip and spend 5 minutes getting hold of thier permit, what's to say they go now anyway? Seriously, it's not exactly a massive effort is it?Because human nature dictates that they will not travel long distances to do a chore therefore they will flytip not very hard to work out or is it.
webess
says...
2:34pm Thu 21 Mar 13
loftyme wrote:Good spot!
webess wrote:Very good point!, a quick google and found this,
Is it legal to restrict access via this permit? The council does have a legal obligation to provide waste services..
Section 1 of the Refuse Disposal Amenity Act 1978
"the council has duty to provide civic amenity sites where residents in the area can deposit their waste",
This is off the dept for environment website, so it would appear that you can take your waste to your local tip without a permit!, just a bradford rule, probably not enforcable
I might show up with a crisp packet and no permit. Looks like the council have no right to turn away domestic waste...
36a
says...
2:42pm Thu 21 Mar 13
I do not dispute that it is a fairly easy process, but I do not want a Council Waste Site employee to have any more Bureaucratic powers, such as examining my driving license.
BierleyBoy
says...
2:44pm Thu 21 Mar 13
Tips to trip are planned for the most part aren't they?
Only like going to post office for a parcel.
Permit system totally unnecessary
Prisoner Cell Block A
says...
3:07pm Thu 21 Mar 13
BierleyBoy wrote:^^^ common sense.
Simply send everyone a letter stating to use tip you must have proof of address. everyone has their driving licence with them anyway don't they?
Tips to trip are planned for the most part aren't they?
Only like going to post office for a parcel.
Permit system totally unnecessary
Won't make a bliind bit of difference.
mr-dog
says...
3:27pm Thu 21 Mar 13
Parz
says...
3:33pm Thu 21 Mar 13
collos25 wrote:True, it probably has cost a fair whack to print enough permits to potentially cover the number of people who want to use the tips. However I'd bet this cost of printing will be less than to cost of dealing with the extra rubbish the tips would be dealing with over the however many years the scheme runs for in the future.
Parz wrote:Everybody pays in one way or another even its through VAT there is no escaping tax for us mortals. Its already cost thousands so far in just printing alone and will cost many more thousands before its it quietly dropped.collos25 wrote:I'm not doubting that, but I can't see the need for all the rage against the Council for implimenting a free pass system to try ensure they're not spending OUR money on dealing with stuff dumped at the tips by people who aren't constributing to the system. I think some people just like a good winge.Parz wrote:It does not matter what you or I think its a matter of fact like it or not.collos25 wrote:Well then they're just feckless and lazy and need to have a word with themselves. You can't blame the council for the inhabitants being inconsiderate cretins who would rather cause a problem for everyone else, making the place look like a sh*t tip instead of putting a bit of effort in.Parz wrote: I don't think it's a bad idea. Council ensuring that a taxpayer funded service is used only by those taxypayers funding it. God forbid. I can't understand why it's going to cause a wave of flytipping. From the sound of it it's really not going to be hard to get your permit. If people are too feckless to go down to the tip and spend 5 minutes getting hold of thier permit, what's to say they go now anyway? Seriously, it's not exactly a massive effort is it?Because human nature dictates that they will not travel long distances to do a chore therefore they will flytip not very hard to work out or is it.
Though without any sight of any figures, we can all but speculate!
bfdborn
says...
4:08pm Thu 21 Mar 13
nhoj89
says...
4:18pm Thu 21 Mar 13
sam-tyler
says...
4:35pm Thu 21 Mar 13
For every Leeds person who uses a Bradford tip (residents of Tyersal)
There will be a Bradford person using a Leeds tip (Baildon folk)
I really don't think someone is willing to drive many miles, avoiding their own local tips, just to dump in a Bradford one, can you?
RollandSmoke
says...
5:59pm Thu 21 Mar 13
collos25
says...
6:32pm Thu 21 Mar 13
joeybcfc
says...
6:36pm Thu 21 Mar 13
webess
says...
6:58pm Thu 21 Mar 13
"(1)It shall be the duty of a local authority to provide places where refuse, other than refuse falling to be disposed of in the course of a business, may be deposited at all reasonable times free of charge by persons resident in the area of the authority and, on payment of such charges (if any) as the authority think fit, by other persons."
In other words, if you take proof of being resident in Bradford. The council MUST accept domestic waste permit or no permit.
Izzyduck
says...
7:02pm Thu 21 Mar 13
allinittogether
says...
7:15pm Thu 21 Mar 13
webess wrote:If you know you have to have proof of being a Bradford resident with you when you go to the tip why would you not simply take your permit?
The wording of the Refuse Disposal (Amenity) Act 1978 is quite clear..
"(1)It shall be the duty of a local authority to provide places where refuse, other than refuse falling to be disposed of in the course of a business, may be deposited at all reasonable times free of charge by persons resident in the area of the authority and, on payment of such charges (if any) as the authority think fit, by other persons."
In other words, if you take proof of being resident in Bradford. The council MUST accept domestic waste permit or no permit.
It's to be hoped that common sense will prevail in cases where someone genuinely has forgotten their permit but in general I think it's a reasonable scheme.
Parz
says...
7:17pm Thu 21 Mar 13
webess wrote:But if you take your proof then they'll give you the permit, that's the whole point!
The wording of the Refuse Disposal (Amenity) Act 1978 is quite clear..
"(1)It shall be the duty of a local authority to provide places where refuse, other than refuse falling to be disposed of in the course of a business, may be deposited at all reasonable times free of charge by persons resident in the area of the authority and, on payment of such charges (if any) as the authority think fit, by other persons."
In other words, if you take proof of being resident in Bradford. The council MUST accept domestic waste permit or no permit.
bobbyo
says...
7:21pm Thu 21 Mar 13
10steve
says...
7:42pm Thu 21 Mar 13
or simply just shrug your shoulders and say !!! NO ENGLISH !!!! seems to work at the Keighley tip !
Mike Strutter
says...
7:52pm Thu 21 Mar 13
He's fuming
webess
says...
7:56pm Thu 21 Mar 13
Parz wrote:Read the main article again. The council are insisting you must be a Bradford council tax payer - the law is that you need only be a resident of Bradford. This scheme is unlawful, end of.
webess wrote:But if you take your proof then they'll give you the permit, that's the whole point!
The wording of the Refuse Disposal (Amenity) Act 1978 is quite clear..
"(1)It shall be the duty of a local authority to provide places where refuse, other than refuse falling to be disposed of in the course of a business, may be deposited at all reasonable times free of charge by persons resident in the area of the authority and, on payment of such charges (if any) as the authority think fit, by other persons."
In other words, if you take proof of being resident in Bradford. The council MUST accept domestic waste permit or no permit.
This is beside the obvious point it will lead to more fly-tipping. Where do you think people turned away from council refuse sites will take their rubbish?
flogem
says...
8:01pm Thu 21 Mar 13
If its not full,fly tippers or there like will dump their rubbish in it.
notanumber
says...
8:16pm Thu 21 Mar 13
The most obvious disadvantages are:
Fly -tipping will increase. If you think it won't you have a touching faith in human nature.
No-one may now help an elderley or infirm neighbour, or one without a car, by taking their rubbish to the tip for them. The notice we all received expressly forbids it.
Everything that can go in the dustbin will go in the dustbin. Large items may be broken up to achieve this hence removing all hope of recycling them.
Young people who live outside the district will not be able to help their elderly, or simply carless, relatives within the district by taking rubbish to the tip for them, as their driving licenses will bear the 'wrong' address.
It's a silly idea and one based in the selfish notion of 'you can't put your rubbish in my dustbin - it's not fair!' Well, fair or not I'd rather see the rubbish go into the tip than on the edge of the football pitch or school playground. For heaven's sake, use some common sense and scrap the scheme before it starts.
sam-tyler
says...
8:24pm Thu 21 Mar 13
Mike Strutter wrote:You'll have to lend him yours Strutt, on the qt of course. ;)
My mate lives in shelf about 1.5 miles from the Queensbury tip, owns a successful business in Bradford employing 20 locals and pays thousands in business rates to Bradford council , his kids go to a primary school in Queensbury yet now he will have to drive to a Halifax tip.
He's fuming
Steve30d
says...
9:06pm Thu 21 Mar 13
misterman wrote:Bet the buisnesses in Birkshaw Lane are fuming, because they're the ones likely to get blocked in by rubbish refused by Bowling Back Lane. Just checked on Google maps and the gate suggests it's a private road so "of course" clearing it up won't be paid for by the council (much like council will only enforce antidog fowling/parking on council land, and they'll stamp all over the rights of others. )
What about the thousands of drivers in Bradford,who don't have a driving licence.
Rhinoman
says...
9:27pm Thu 21 Mar 13
This council really is a laughing stock , i dread to think what amazing money wasting plan they come up with next.
Steve30d
says...
10:20pm Thu 21 Mar 13
And while on about not knowing, I'm somewhat confused as to how these plans were snuck past the other councilors until now. Shouldn't be too difficult to show whose is putting a spin on it for political gain. What dates were the meetings were it was discussed, and who attented. If they are faking surprise they'll have been there.
Fire Fox
says...
1:20am Fri 22 Mar 13
misterman wrote:I am another Bradfordian with NO car and NO drivers license, who relies on kind relatives to help out with recycling. Apparently they will be breaking the law if they do this!
What about the thousands of drivers in Bradford,who don't have a driving licence.
Even more aggravating is that many city centre residents still have NO doorstep recycling collection, over three years after the 2003 legislation came into force (two materials by 2010) so they are breaking the law themselves. One rule for BMDC and one rule for the rest of us.
roberto mankini
says...
7:49am Fri 22 Mar 13
And why can you only use one tip?
webess
says...
8:05am Fri 22 Mar 13
roberto mankini wrote:According to the law, you can use any tip in Bradford if you're a resident.
You need you Council Tax bill to get your permit. Why not send out the permit with the bill and save wasting time on the application process?
And why can you only use one tip?
You also don't require a permit - but the council is above the law isn't it?
Tommyl
says...
8:25am Fri 22 Mar 13
My biggest concern is that is was all kept under wraps until the council bills were sent out. What happened to open government and democratic consultation?
TirNaNog
says...
9:31am Fri 22 Mar 13
Parz wrote:Do you think there aren't any Bradford residents using Leeds,Kirklees etc waste facilities because they are nearer? Should be a reciprocal thing based on proximity. As an example, what if a resident of Northowram/Shelf (CMDC) can't use Queensbury tip? Are they going to drive to Ovenden or find a quiet spot down Deanstones Lane? I think we all know the answer!
collos25 wrote:I'm not doubting that, but I can't see the need for all the rage against the Council for implimenting a free pass system to try ensure they're not spending OUR money on dealing with stuff dumped at the tips by people who aren't constributing to the system. I think some people just like a good winge.Parz wrote:It does not matter what you or I think its a matter of fact like it or not.collos25 wrote:Well then they're just feckless and lazy and need to have a word with themselves. You can't blame the council for the inhabitants being inconsiderate cretins who would rather cause a problem for everyone else, making the place look like a sh*t tip instead of putting a bit of effort in.Parz wrote: I don't think it's a bad idea. Council ensuring that a taxpayer funded service is used only by those taxypayers funding it. God forbid. I can't understand why it's going to cause a wave of flytipping. From the sound of it it's really not going to be hard to get your permit. If people are too feckless to go down to the tip and spend 5 minutes getting hold of thier permit, what's to say they go now anyway? Seriously, it's not exactly a massive effort is it?Because human nature dictates that they will not travel long distances to do a chore therefore they will flytip not very hard to work out or is it.
yezboss
says...
9:37am Fri 22 Mar 13
Also on the subject of blocked drains, at the last count and it was an estimated one some 11500 drains are blocked in the BMDC area. This is because of neglect. At one time there was at least two full time drain cleaner vehicles. Now maybe one part time not regularly crewed if that and the work is contracted out I am told anyway. Not very successfully I would suggest.
Parz
says...
2:22pm Fri 22 Mar 13
webess wrote:But as a Bradford resident, shouldn't you also be a Bradford Council Tax Payer? I fail to see the difference, other than the pedantic wording.
Parz wrote:Read the main article again. The council are insisting you must be a Bradford council tax payer - the law is that you need only be a resident of Bradford. This scheme is unlawful, end of. This is beside the obvious point it will lead to more fly-tipping. Where do you think people turned away from council refuse sites will take their rubbish?webess wrote: The wording of the Refuse Disposal (Amenity) Act 1978 is quite clear.. "(1)It shall be the duty of a local authority to provide places where refuse, other than refuse falling to be disposed of in the course of a business, may be deposited at all reasonable times free of charge by persons resident in the area of the authority and, on payment of such charges (if any) as the authority think fit, by other persons." In other words, if you take proof of being resident in Bradford. The council MUST accept domestic waste permit or no permit.But if you take your proof then they'll give you the permit, that's the whole point!
I'll bow to your superior knowledge if you can show me otherwise.
Mr Blondе
says...
3:15pm Fri 22 Mar 13
Parz wrote:But as a Bradford resident, shouldn't you also be a Bradford Council Tax Payer?
webess wrote:But as a Bradford resident, shouldn't you also be a Bradford Council Tax Payer? I fail to see the difference, other than the pedantic wording.
Parz wrote:Read the main article again. The council are insisting you must be a Bradford council tax payer - the law is that you need only be a resident of Bradford. This scheme is unlawful, end of. This is beside the obvious point it will lead to more fly-tipping. Where do you think people turned away from council refuse sites will take their rubbish?webess wrote: The wording of the Refuse Disposal (Amenity) Act 1978 is quite clear.. "(1)It shall be the duty of a local authority to provide places where refuse, other than refuse falling to be disposed of in the course of a business, may be deposited at all reasonable times free of charge by persons resident in the area of the authority and, on payment of such charges (if any) as the authority think fit, by other persons." In other words, if you take proof of being resident in Bradford. The council MUST accept domestic waste permit or no permit.But if you take your proof then they'll give you the permit, that's the whole point!
I'll bow to your superior knowledge if you can show me otherwise.
Not at all. What if you are a lodger, the council tax bill will be in the name of the householder, not yours.
Same goes for a multi occupancy house I would presume.
Living with parents, etc...........
Parz
says...
3:35pm Fri 22 Mar 13
Mr Blondе wrote:True, I didn't think of that, which is stupid considering one of the them applies to me! (Idiot!)
Parz wrote:But as a Bradford resident, shouldn't you also be a Bradford Council Tax Payer? Not at all. What if you are a lodger, the council tax bill will be in the name of the householder, not yours. Same goes for a multi occupancy house I would presume. Living with parents, etc...........webess wrote:But as a Bradford resident, shouldn't you also be a Bradford Council Tax Payer? I fail to see the difference, other than the pedantic wording. I'll bow to your superior knowledge if you can show me otherwise.Parz wrote:Read the main article again. The council are insisting you must be a Bradford council tax payer - the law is that you need only be a resident of Bradford. This scheme is unlawful, end of. This is beside the obvious point it will lead to more fly-tipping. Where do you think people turned away from council refuse sites will take their rubbish?webess wrote: The wording of the Refuse Disposal (Amenity) Act 1978 is quite clear.. "(1)It shall be the duty of a local authority to provide places where refuse, other than refuse falling to be disposed of in the course of a business, may be deposited at all reasonable times free of charge by persons resident in the area of the authority and, on payment of such charges (if any) as the authority think fit, by other persons." In other words, if you take proof of being resident in Bradford. The council MUST accept domestic waste permit or no permit.But if you take your proof then they'll give you the permit, that's the whole point!
Common sense would say that the permit would cover the household rather than the indivdual other wise my parents, for example, would have to have a permit each despite living in the same house paying the same council tax bill, which would just be complete nonsense. That would cover the situations you mentioned, providing the householder was willing to get the permit and if they're not, that's not really the Coucil's fault. But then like I say, that would be common sense, and this is Bradford "Lets build a 90 million pound puddle" Council, so you never know! I'd assume a lot of eventualities are covered in the full policy's T&C's though.
Salts Fella
says...
4:01pm Fri 22 Mar 13
flashdonut wrote:I personally have no problem with applying for a permit. Just with the waste of time and money invested in this hair-brained scheme.
Everybody received teh permit letter with their council tax bill. Everybody. You fill in about two questions and take with you when you go to the tip. It is that simple. It really is. Folk need to get a grip. You are acting like it is a task. It isn't.
Who cares where the rubbish comes from so long as it's being responsibly disposed of? We need to make it easier for people to recycle not more difficult.
The Council needs to look at the bigger picture. I'm of the opinion that this will only result in more fly-tipping and thus more expense; and that's aside from the admin costs.
Mr Blondе
says...
4:48pm Fri 22 Mar 13
Whether it's legal or not....etc, etc.
Surely the easiest & cheapest solution would've been to include a permit for a property in the envelope, along with the council tax notice.
So instead of an A4 page of nonsense & contradictions, you could have something along the lines of ......
"Here is your permit to use Bradfords HWRC's.... Please detach it & take it with you when you go to the tip."
Or is that too simple for the simpletons on the council?
albert2003
says...
7:47pm Fri 22 Mar 13
vaildpoint
says...
8:24pm Fri 22 Mar 13
Summergirl
says...
10:29pm Fri 22 Mar 13
Silsdenman
says...
12:37pm Sat 23 Mar 13
misterman
says...
1:47pm Sat 23 Mar 13
WayneRouke
says...
5:02pm Sat 23 Mar 13
As far as I am concerned, taking the bill should be enough to be able to grant me a permit. This is Bradford obtaining information for something else. The driving licence information isnt necessary and I will be asking the Council what they need that information for.
WayneRouke
says...
5:23pm Sat 23 Mar 13
loftyme wrote:Excellent.. I think some letters/phone calls to the council are in order. In most places a council tax bill is an accepted form of identification, so that should be the case with the council.
webess wrote:Very good point!, a quick google and found this,
Is it legal to restrict access via this permit? The council does have a legal obligation to provide waste services..
Section 1 of the Refuse Disposal Amenity Act 1978
"the council has duty to provide civic amenity sites where residents in the area can deposit their waste",
This is off the dept for environment website, so it would appear that you can take your waste to your local tip without a permit!, just a bradford rule, probably not enforcable
All I should have to do is turn up with my council tax bill to prove I am a resident of Bradford. I should not have to produce a driving licence, nor enter its details on the form.
Why cant I take my passport/birth certificate along with my council tax bill.
I will take some rubbish to the tip, on foot, with my council tax bill, and if turned away will feel justified in leaving it outside their premises.
I refuse to give the council more personal information about me that it needs.
WR
Rocky Horror
says...
9:35am Sun 24 Mar 13
Pity Poor Bradford wrote:Pity Poor Bradford should also tell us that Kirklees has had a permit system for many years and a Bradford resident doing what he does in reverse and attempting to dump his rubbish in Kirklees will have been turned away for a long time now.
I live just over the border in Kirlees, and the Bowling Back Lane depot is nearer to me than the one in Kirklees. As someone who grew up in Bradford the Bowling Back Lane depot is 'my' depot.
Regarding 'White van men', you have to have a permit to be able to take rubbish in a van. I found out when I took some household rubbish to the tip in my 1966 Ford Anglia van, clearly not used for commercial purposes, and was turned away. When that happened I felt like dumping all the rubbish outside, returning in my car, putting it in the boot and driving in, just to make a point.
Household rubbish tips
are what they say, for householders. The permit system does not seem to have made much difference to fly tipping. I see at lot of it in both Bradford and Kirklees. It largely seems to be rubbish from small time builders not willing to pay for the service they require.
seen it all before
says...
4:40pm Mon 25 Mar 13
Typical Socailist big brother bullying!
If recyling is such a good thing, then we should be encouraging everone to come and deposit.
Why driving licence????
Can take out a loan or do almost anything with a Council tax bill and a utility bill, so what is it all about????
But the one thing that seems to be overlooked, is the fact they state they can do 1 every 5 minutes, so the poor soul in twelfth place will have to wait for 1 hour!
The passes can be obtained from 1st April (mmmmmmmmm) but when will you HAVE to have got a pass to be able to tip? YES I SAID TIP " I GO TO THE TIP" not recyling centre TIP TIP TIP TIP TIP I feel better for that.
We have the council we deserve.
taurababe
says...
6:04am Tue 26 Mar 13
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midge the one
says...
12:33pm Tue 26 Mar 13
WayneRouke
says...
6:47pm Tue 26 Mar 13
midge the one wrote:But it WONT keep your council tax down. The production of the permits have to be paid for, someone to administer them has to be appointed/recruited. People to issue them have to be appointed/recruited. They will have to be policed somehow to prevent abuse.
whats the problem its only a small form.if it helps keep my council tax down then good on the council.
Add to that the fact that this was brought in last minute, various meetings will be held to argue and assess feasibility, together with the post implementation meeting. Thats a lot of meetings and a lot of expenses/meals.
Fly tipping is likely to increase, adding to the cost.
As has been said, every household has received a council tax bill, so what is the difficulty in putting the permit in the same envelope??. BUT, a council tax bill is identification in its own right, so why not do away with the permit altogether and only admit those producing a council tax bill, or other address verifying identification.
And then there is the issue of Big Brother, with them wanting a driving license number (for those that have them).
This permit scheme smacks of an end of year spend to use up a budget,if you ask me,so that said budget is not reduced next year.
WR
seen it all before
says...
7:33pm Tue 26 Mar 13
chainbaar
says...
11:50am Fri 29 Mar 13
Albion. says...
6:30am Thu 21 Mar 13