Bradford Bulls sign talented young Leeds Rhinos star Liam Sutcliffe

Liam Sutcliffe storms forward for the Rhinos against Hull KR during his breakthrough 2013 campaign

Liam Sutcliffe storms forward for the Rhinos against Hull KR during his breakthrough 2013 campaign

First published in Sport
Last updated
Bradford Telegraph and Argus: Photograph of the Author by , Bradford Bulls Reporter

Bulls coach Francis Cummins has pulled off a significant coup by signing top Leeds prospect Liam Sutcliffe on a one-month loan.

The 19-year-old, who scored seven tries in 18 appearances last season, is set to make his debut in Friday’s trip to Hull FC.

The Leeds-born teenager stands 6ft 2in and weighs 14st 6lb and looks certain to partner Luke Gale in the halves for the next month.

Sutcliffe made his senior bow for the Rhinos against St Helens last May and underlined his rich talent with a number of highly impressive displays.

He has the ability to play at loose forward and stand-off and is set to play as a pivot following Jarrod Sammut’s departure and the loss to injury of Lee Gaskell for up to three months.

“Liam is a hugely talented player and we are delighted to have him on board,” said Cummins.

“He offers us another dimension, both at half-back or even at loose forward, and we expect him to improve our team.

“Our current predicament is being well documented and I would like to take this opportunity to thank Leeds Rhinos for offering us a helping hand.

“It is a great gesture and, in return, we hope to offer Liam further Super League experience and even more exposure.

“Brian McDermott and his colleagues are predicting a big future for him. He is just a little unfortunate that some of the game’s greatest halves are in front of him at Leeds.

“This is a fantastic opportunity for him to shine on the big stage and I think it goes without saying that he will feature heavily over the next few weeks.”

Former Bradford prop Brian McDermott said: “We were approached by Francis, regarding Liam, and we are happy for him to go to the Bulls for a month.

“Francis remains a good friend of the club and we know that Liam will be in good hands.

“We saw last season how much Liam developed from the game time he had and this is a great opportunity for him to continue that development.

“As with the other five young players we have away from the club this season, this is a key part of their future progress and the next stage of our development as a club and I am sure Liam will grab the chance with both hands.”

The Bulls remain in special measures due to being in administration but the RFL say they can make loan signings provided the club has the necessary cash flow to fund them.

RFL director of licensing and standards Blake Solly said: “Effectively any club which is in administration is in special measures.

“If Bradford want to sign players then they have to show that their cash-flow enables them to afford it.”

Comments (30)

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8:11am Tue 4 Mar 14

Mickbull4eva says...

Great signing welcome aboard liam
Great signing welcome aboard liam Mickbull4eva
  • Score: 13

8:17am Tue 4 Mar 14

mumbyfan says...

He's a smart coach is Cummins and he should walk away with coach of the year already! Any one else get the feeling that with his contacts throughout his 20+ years, and the ex Bradford connections at Huddersfield , Leeds etc and smith at wire that they see the bulls as adding value to super league and are trying to help out where possible. Good look to Sutcliffe, let's hope he does better than Gerry!
He's a smart coach is Cummins and he should walk away with coach of the year already! Any one else get the feeling that with his contacts throughout his 20+ years, and the ex Bradford connections at Huddersfield , Leeds etc and smith at wire that they see the bulls as adding value to super league and are trying to help out where possible. Good look to Sutcliffe, let's hope he does better than Gerry! mumbyfan
  • Score: 27

8:23am Tue 4 Mar 14

NG1972 says...

Well done Franny once again. I will say it again FC deserves a medal for what he has had to put up with. This is a very good signing see you on Friday Liam.
Well done Franny once again. I will say it again FC deserves a medal for what he has had to put up with. This is a very good signing see you on Friday Liam. NG1972
  • Score: 25

8:52am Tue 4 Mar 14

raisemeup says...

The loan players that Franny has brought to the club in different circumstances would have been the basis of a very good side.

Well done FC and as we all say welcome Liam.
The loan players that Franny has brought to the club in different circumstances would have been the basis of a very good side. Well done FC and as we all say welcome Liam. raisemeup
  • Score: 19

10:05am Tue 4 Mar 14

bullybullman says...

A big tanks to Leeds too ! its surprising during hard times who your friends really are & both Leeds & Warrington have been very supportive of our plight. Welcome on board fella & lets hope we get the two points on Friday it shows our intent after The bed salesman’s shambolic behaviour & comments about certain relegation.
A big tanks to Leeds too ! its surprising during hard times who your friends really are & both Leeds & Warrington have been very supportive of our plight. Welcome on board fella & lets hope we get the two points on Friday it shows our intent after The bed salesman’s shambolic behaviour & comments about certain relegation. bullybullman
  • Score: 6

10:23am Tue 4 Mar 14

spanglishbull.uk says...

Bullybullman,
Read the text of the actual meeting before you post silly posts about Mr.Moore.You just might change your mind about him.The shambolic behaviour and comments should be aimed at Red Hall.
Bullybullman, Read the text of the actual meeting before you post silly posts about Mr.Moore.You just might change your mind about him.The shambolic behaviour and comments should be aimed at Red Hall. spanglishbull.uk
  • Score: 20

10:58am Tue 4 Mar 14

NG1972 says...

spanglishbull.uk wrote:
Bullybullman,
Read the text of the actual meeting before you post silly posts about Mr.Moore.You just might change your mind about him.The shambolic behaviour and comments should be aimed at Red Hall.
I think what Bullybullman is getting at is the reason for MM to walk out. This is not very good coming from the chairman. He should have took the 6 points on the chin and resolved his issues with the RFL behind the scenes.
[quote][p][bold]spanglishbull.uk[/bold] wrote: Bullybullman, Read the text of the actual meeting before you post silly posts about Mr.Moore.You just might change your mind about him.The shambolic behaviour and comments should be aimed at Red Hall.[/p][/quote]I think what Bullybullman is getting at is the reason for MM to walk out. This is not very good coming from the chairman. He should have took the 6 points on the chin and resolved his issues with the RFL behind the scenes. NG1972
  • Score: 9

11:42am Tue 4 Mar 14

cleckbull says...

spanglishbull.uk wrote:
Bullybullman,
Read the text of the actual meeting before you post silly posts about Mr.Moore.You just might change your mind about him.The shambolic behaviour and comments should be aimed at Red Hall.
Hear ! Hear!
Can everyone stop bad mouthing Mr Moore, Mr Calvert & Mr Watt.
They grafted all hours to keep our club alive and should be applauded not criticized
If a new owner comes in they should consider roles for these three if at all possible. They are 100% behind the Bulls despite the foolish comments that are added on this forum
[quote][p][bold]spanglishbull.uk[/bold] wrote: Bullybullman, Read the text of the actual meeting before you post silly posts about Mr.Moore.You just might change your mind about him.The shambolic behaviour and comments should be aimed at Red Hall.[/p][/quote]Hear ! Hear! Can everyone stop bad mouthing Mr Moore, Mr Calvert & Mr Watt. They grafted all hours to keep our club alive and should be applauded not criticized If a new owner comes in they should consider roles for these three if at all possible. They are 100% behind the Bulls despite the foolish comments that are added on this forum cleckbull
  • Score: 22

11:43am Tue 4 Mar 14

cleckbull says...

spanglishbull.uk wrote:
Bullybullman,
Read the text of the actual meeting before you post silly posts about Mr.Moore.You just might change your mind about him.The shambolic behaviour and comments should be aimed at Red Hall.
Hear ! Hear!
Can everyone stop bad mouthing Mr Moore, Mr Calvert & Mr Watt.
They grafted all hours to keep our club alive and should be applauded not criticized
If a new owner comes in they should consider roles for these three if at all possible. They are 100% behind the Bulls despite the foolish comments that are added on this forum
[quote][p][bold]spanglishbull.uk[/bold] wrote: Bullybullman, Read the text of the actual meeting before you post silly posts about Mr.Moore.You just might change your mind about him.The shambolic behaviour and comments should be aimed at Red Hall.[/p][/quote]Hear ! Hear! Can everyone stop bad mouthing Mr Moore, Mr Calvert & Mr Watt. They grafted all hours to keep our club alive and should be applauded not criticized If a new owner comes in they should consider roles for these three if at all possible. They are 100% behind the Bulls despite the foolish comments that are added on this forum cleckbull
  • Score: 4

12:04pm Tue 4 Mar 14

bullybullman says...

spanglishbull.uk wrote:
Bullybullman,
Read the text of the actual meeting before you post silly posts about Mr.Moore.You just might change your mind about him.The shambolic behaviour and comments should be aimed at Red Hall.
Spanglish - I can draw my own opinions on what Mr Moore & co are thankyou & I dont need you to form it form me thanks. As I have been involved activly at the club over the last few years I dont need you to direct my thoughts from your golf course in La Manga thanks. I am fully able to read & I am fully able to form my own opinions get back in the sun.
[quote][p][bold]spanglishbull.uk[/bold] wrote: Bullybullman, Read the text of the actual meeting before you post silly posts about Mr.Moore.You just might change your mind about him.The shambolic behaviour and comments should be aimed at Red Hall.[/p][/quote]Spanglish - I can draw my own opinions on what Mr Moore & co are thankyou & I dont need you to form it form me thanks. As I have been involved activly at the club over the last few years I dont need you to direct my thoughts from your golf course in La Manga thanks. I am fully able to read & I am fully able to form my own opinions get back in the sun. bullybullman
  • Score: -9

12:08pm Tue 4 Mar 14

bullybullman says...

NG1972 - Thanks for that & you read my post correctly if you agree to pay all creditors it means all creditors not just the ones you choose to pay you need to stick to the agreement or and increasingly fed up already bent RFL will punish you end of that rant.
NG1972 - Thanks for that & you read my post correctly if you agree to pay all creditors it means all creditors not just the ones you choose to pay you need to stick to the agreement or and increasingly fed up already bent RFL will punish you end of that rant. bullybullman
  • Score: -9

12:26pm Tue 4 Mar 14

Sheffieldbull says...

NG1972 wrote:
spanglishbull.uk wrote:
Bullybullman,
Read the text of the actual meeting before you post silly posts about Mr.Moore.You just might change your mind about him.The shambolic behaviour and comments should be aimed at Red Hall.
I think what Bullybullman is getting at is the reason for MM to walk out. This is not very good coming from the chairman. He should have took the 6 points on the chin and resolved his issues with the RFL behind the scenes.
Sorry NG if you think I’m singling out your posts for comment but the points you raise could be viewed in a somewhat different way.
The deduction of 6 points came with ‘Special Measures’ and therein lays the issue.
The Board were in a 28 day period of control of the Club and had to submit an acceptable offer to both the Administrator and the RFL. As we know, their offer was accepted by Mr Wilson and the stumbling block, as always, came from Red Hall. Now whether or not you believe MM’s version of events is immaterial in some respects. To continue on with their purchase would have ensured that the Bulls REMAINED in Special Measures, very likely, if not guaranteed, until the end of the season. The squad was paper thin to begin with, second game in we lost a playmaker, 3 important squad members ‘disembarked’. Even without further injuries (what, with or luck, right!) we as a Club would have only been able to take on short term Loaned players. That’s the bit that would /will send us down and the Board knew this. Not the -6 points, it wasn’t a standalone penalty!

One could argue that by withdrawing their offer (remember, they couldn’t have stayed anyway without completing their purchase) and walking away, they were actually helping the Bulls survive in SL, because new owners would be unlikely to have had the Special Measures levied against them. If we get new owners and Special Measures are imposed then that’s all but that for the Bulls in SL anyway.....IMO.
[quote][p][bold]NG1972[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]spanglishbull.uk[/bold] wrote: Bullybullman, Read the text of the actual meeting before you post silly posts about Mr.Moore.You just might change your mind about him.The shambolic behaviour and comments should be aimed at Red Hall.[/p][/quote]I think what Bullybullman is getting at is the reason for MM to walk out. This is not very good coming from the chairman. He should have took the 6 points on the chin and resolved his issues with the RFL behind the scenes.[/p][/quote]Sorry NG if you think I’m singling out your posts for comment but the points you raise could be viewed in a somewhat different way. The deduction of 6 points came with ‘Special Measures’ and therein lays the issue. The Board were in a 28 day period of control of the Club and had to submit an acceptable offer to both the Administrator and the RFL. As we know, their offer was accepted by Mr Wilson and the stumbling block, as always, came from Red Hall. Now whether or not you believe MM’s version of events is immaterial in some respects. To continue on with their purchase would have ensured that the Bulls REMAINED in Special Measures, very likely, if not guaranteed, until the end of the season. The squad was paper thin to begin with, second game in we lost a playmaker, 3 important squad members ‘disembarked’. Even without further injuries (what, with or luck, right!) we as a Club would have only been able to take on short term Loaned players. That’s the bit that would /will send us down and the Board knew this. Not the -6 points, it wasn’t a standalone penalty! One could argue that by withdrawing their offer (remember, they couldn’t have stayed anyway without completing their purchase) and walking away, they were actually helping the Bulls survive in SL, because new owners would be unlikely to have had the Special Measures levied against them. If we get new owners and Special Measures are imposed then that’s all but that for the Bulls in SL anyway.....IMO. Sheffieldbull
  • Score: 5

12:35pm Tue 4 Mar 14

Sheffieldbull says...

bullybullman wrote:
spanglishbull.uk wrote:
Bullybullman,
Read the text of the actual meeting before you post silly posts about Mr.Moore.You just might change your mind about him.The shambolic behaviour and comments should be aimed at Red Hall.
Spanglish - I can draw my own opinions on what Mr Moore & co are thankyou & I dont need you to form it form me thanks. As I have been involved activly at the club over the last few years I dont need you to direct my thoughts from your golf course in La Manga thanks. I am fully able to read & I am fully able to form my own opinions get back in the sun.
If you read as well as you write, maybe you do need some help bully’ ;-)
[quote][p][bold]bullybullman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]spanglishbull.uk[/bold] wrote: Bullybullman, Read the text of the actual meeting before you post silly posts about Mr.Moore.You just might change your mind about him.The shambolic behaviour and comments should be aimed at Red Hall.[/p][/quote]Spanglish - I can draw my own opinions on what Mr Moore & co are thankyou & I dont need you to form it form me thanks. As I have been involved activly at the club over the last few years I dont need you to direct my thoughts from your golf course in La Manga thanks. I am fully able to read & I am fully able to form my own opinions get back in the sun.[/p][/quote]If you read as well as you write, maybe you do need some help bully’ ;-) Sheffieldbull
  • Score: -1

12:46pm Tue 4 Mar 14

Sad bull says...

NG1972 wrote:
spanglishbull.uk wrote:
Bullybullman,
Read the text of the actual meeting before you post silly posts about Mr.Moore.You just might change your mind about him.The shambolic behaviour and comments should be aimed at Red Hall.
I think what Bullybullman is getting at is the reason for MM to walk out. This is not very good coming from the chairman. He should have took the 6 points on the chin and resolved his issues with the RFL behind the scenes.
Quite how he could do that when according to the article, they were told minus 6 points and SPECIAL MEASURES, non-negotiable.

They were between a rock and a hard place really. How do you start to negotiate behind the scenes in that case ?

I don't think they were left with much alternative really.
[quote][p][bold]NG1972[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]spanglishbull.uk[/bold] wrote: Bullybullman, Read the text of the actual meeting before you post silly posts about Mr.Moore.You just might change your mind about him.The shambolic behaviour and comments should be aimed at Red Hall.[/p][/quote]I think what Bullybullman is getting at is the reason for MM to walk out. This is not very good coming from the chairman. He should have took the 6 points on the chin and resolved his issues with the RFL behind the scenes.[/p][/quote]Quite how he could do that when according to the article, they were told minus 6 points and SPECIAL MEASURES, non-negotiable. They were between a rock and a hard place really. How do you start to negotiate behind the scenes in that case ? I don't think they were left with much alternative really. Sad bull
  • Score: 0

1:14pm Tue 4 Mar 14

THEMANOFSTEEL says...

Just booked my tickets for Friday on the coach coyb!!
great deal is that £25.00 including coach travel!!!
Just booked my tickets for Friday on the coach coyb!! great deal is that £25.00 including coach travel!!! THEMANOFSTEEL
  • Score: 10

1:17pm Tue 4 Mar 14

nosher says...

This lad was very impressive last season. Hope is as good for us. Phil Clarke was bulling Bateman up on sky last night !!!!
This lad was very impressive last season. Hope is as good for us. Phil Clarke was bulling Bateman up on sky last night !!!! nosher
  • Score: 8

1:18pm Tue 4 Mar 14

Claytonbull says...

Why arnt certain newspapers chasing this story surely this is big news for a sports governing body to lie threw it's teeth if thats the case why arnt journalists scratching at the red hall doors demanding to no the truth. Get it all out in the open demand the minutes from meetings and lets see who really is to blame.
Why arnt certain newspapers chasing this story surely this is big news for a sports governing body to lie threw it's teeth if thats the case why arnt journalists scratching at the red hall doors demanding to no the truth. Get it all out in the open demand the minutes from meetings and lets see who really is to blame. Claytonbull
  • Score: 10

2:50pm Tue 4 Mar 14

doctor.t says...

Says on Sporting Life website that,along with Liam Sutciffe,we have signed Glenn Riley,from Warrington,on loan.

Nothing anywhere else?????
Says on Sporting Life website that,along with Liam Sutciffe,we have signed Glenn Riley,from Warrington,on loan. Nothing anywhere else????? doctor.t
  • Score: 1

3:12pm Tue 4 Mar 14

spanglishbull.uk says...

Bullbullyman.
If you are actively involved at the club as you say then I assume Mr.Moore was paying your wages.That is just what the club do not need,people like you slating your employers.Why work for in your words"A BED SALESMAN"who,s behaviour is shambolic.
Bullbullyman. If you are actively involved at the club as you say then I assume Mr.Moore was paying your wages.That is just what the club do not need,people like you slating your employers.Why work for in your words"A BED SALESMAN"who,s behaviour is shambolic. spanglishbull.uk
  • Score: -1

3:16pm Tue 4 Mar 14

axelf1963 says...

Where are Viking and his merry men, You know the ones who slagged off Leeds over the Harris affair and did not say thanks when Leeds gave money to Bulls on ticket sales when in admin 1st time.
You have a lot to learn from the round ball game Viking
Where are Viking and his merry men, You know the ones who slagged off Leeds over the Harris affair and did not say thanks when Leeds gave money to Bulls on ticket sales when in admin 1st time. You have a lot to learn from the round ball game Viking axelf1963
  • Score: -6

4:04pm Tue 4 Mar 14

Loadofbull70 says...

I don’t know how anyone can give credit to Mr Moore & his board ! between them all & the RFL the mess is bigger than ever.

Moore does not have any money to investment or lump sum to invest in the club fact ! His plan was to pay creditors back over the next 5 years the source of his proposal was season ticket money forecasts generated over the next 5 seasons not this one of course.

He was naive to think that this would satisfy the requirement of the RFL that all creditors would be paid back in full. Omar Khan was a creditor as he signed an agreement on a loan which made him liable for the payment of said loan. All Omar was asking for was this sum of money to pay back the loan he was liable for not the club.

If Mr Moore & co were anything like what they preach this would have come out during the due diligence process & it did Moore was well aware of this debt but choose to try & double cross Omar Khan.

Omar Khan is not stupid he`s a borderline crook but not stupid & he is logged as a creditor as are the RFL & Bradford council the rest of the creditors are peanuts.

Moore realised his plan to pay off the creditors over the next 5 years was never going to happen if the club were not in super league & the RFL also finally twigged it was with the clubs future earning the creditors would be paid back. The RFL were then asked to advance SKY monies to the club to finish this season off.

At this point the RFL agreed to help out but 6 points would be deducted & special measure put in place why would the RFL advance 100k so we could go out & splash the cash.

In short Moore & Co tried getting the club for nothing , paying the debts of OK Bulls off with money not even generated yet that would hinder the club for a further 5 years 1.2 million owed 400k approx to Omar which was never in the plan to pay leaving 800k = 160k a year to find before any other expense yet we moan about not getting 100k & that’s our big gripe. So the directors are clueless & the RFL let them get this far so both are massively to blame.

The RFL are under massive pressure this year because if we did not get docked point and another club goes down there will be hell to pay in the Rugby world. We deserve a 6 point deduction end of IMO.

Franny & the players are getting on with it & not giving in unlike Moore & his board. Massive respect to Franny.
I don’t know how anyone can give credit to Mr Moore & his board ! between them all & the RFL the mess is bigger than ever. Moore does not have any money to investment or lump sum to invest in the club fact ! His plan was to pay creditors back over the next 5 years the source of his proposal was season ticket money forecasts generated over the next 5 seasons not this one of course. He was naive to think that this would satisfy the requirement of the RFL that all creditors would be paid back in full. Omar Khan was a creditor as he signed an agreement on a loan which made him liable for the payment of said loan. All Omar was asking for was this sum of money to pay back the loan he was liable for not the club. If Mr Moore & co were anything like what they preach this would have come out during the due diligence process & it did Moore was well aware of this debt but choose to try & double cross Omar Khan. Omar Khan is not stupid he`s a borderline crook but not stupid & he is logged as a creditor as are the RFL & Bradford council the rest of the creditors are peanuts. Moore realised his plan to pay off the creditors over the next 5 years was never going to happen if the club were not in super league & the RFL also finally twigged it was with the clubs future earning the creditors would be paid back. The RFL were then asked to advance SKY monies to the club to finish this season off. At this point the RFL agreed to help out but 6 points would be deducted & special measure put in place why would the RFL advance 100k so we could go out & splash the cash. In short Moore & Co tried getting the club for nothing , paying the debts of OK Bulls off with money not even generated yet that would hinder the club for a further 5 years 1.2 million owed 400k approx to Omar which was never in the plan to pay leaving 800k = 160k a year to find before any other expense yet we moan about not getting 100k & that’s our big gripe. So the directors are clueless & the RFL let them get this far so both are massively to blame. The RFL are under massive pressure this year because if we did not get docked point and another club goes down there will be hell to pay in the Rugby world. We deserve a 6 point deduction end of IMO. Franny & the players are getting on with it & not giving in unlike Moore & his board. Massive respect to Franny. Loadofbull70
  • Score: -8

4:44pm Tue 4 Mar 14

Loadofbull70 says...

Reading Sheffield & Spanglish`s post they seem to think the RFL have caused this ! they have not helped but it is pure and simple a fault of successive Bradford board level mismanagement end of story. The club has been allowed to run like a hobby not a business by people who are clueless about both Rugby & running a club.
Think its time certain people on here woke up & accepted what`s gone on is our own fault nobody else’s.

Caisley – Allowed Noble to break the salary cap several times resulting in big fines. He allow Noble to over spend. Singing Morley for 5 games 25k !
Hood – Allowed McNamara to spend the full cap on dross stating the board do not get involved with signings. Rikki Sherriffe , Michael Worrincy ect mega buck & were total dross.
We allowed class to leave real home grown talent only to be replaced with expensive imports & over paid uk players not wanted elsewhere.
Omar Khan - He wanted to make Bradford great again but totally over estimated the lack of interest in Bradford Bulls he though fans would come flocking back & failed. So he dipped the till & raided the cupboard.
Mike Moore – 10 Bob millionaire who never had anything to invest & like Omar wanted to play the figures.
Reading Sheffield & Spanglish`s post they seem to think the RFL have caused this ! they have not helped but it is pure and simple a fault of successive Bradford board level mismanagement end of story. The club has been allowed to run like a hobby not a business by people who are clueless about both Rugby & running a club. Think its time certain people on here woke up & accepted what`s gone on is our own fault nobody else’s. Caisley – Allowed Noble to break the salary cap several times resulting in big fines. He allow Noble to over spend. Singing Morley for 5 games 25k ! Hood – Allowed McNamara to spend the full cap on dross stating the board do not get involved with signings. Rikki Sherriffe , Michael Worrincy ect mega buck & were total dross. We allowed class to leave real home grown talent only to be replaced with expensive imports & over paid uk players not wanted elsewhere. Omar Khan - He wanted to make Bradford great again but totally over estimated the lack of interest in Bradford Bulls he though fans would come flocking back & failed. So he dipped the till & raided the cupboard. Mike Moore – 10 Bob millionaire who never had anything to invest & like Omar wanted to play the figures. Loadofbull70
  • Score: -3

5:07pm Tue 4 Mar 14

grafter1980 says...

Loadofbull70 wrote:
I don’t know how anyone can give credit to Mr Moore & his board ! between them all & the RFL the mess is bigger than ever.

Moore does not have any money to investment or lump sum to invest in the club fact ! His plan was to pay creditors back over the next 5 years the source of his proposal was season ticket money forecasts generated over the next 5 seasons not this one of course.

He was naive to think that this would satisfy the requirement of the RFL that all creditors would be paid back in full. Omar Khan was a creditor as he signed an agreement on a loan which made him liable for the payment of said loan. All Omar was asking for was this sum of money to pay back the loan he was liable for not the club.

If Mr Moore & co were anything like what they preach this would have come out during the due diligence process & it did Moore was well aware of this debt but choose to try & double cross Omar Khan.

Omar Khan is not stupid he`s a borderline crook but not stupid & he is logged as a creditor as are the RFL & Bradford council the rest of the creditors are peanuts.

Moore realised his plan to pay off the creditors over the next 5 years was never going to happen if the club were not in super league & the RFL also finally twigged it was with the clubs future earning the creditors would be paid back. The RFL were then asked to advance SKY monies to the club to finish this season off.

At this point the RFL agreed to help out but 6 points would be deducted & special measure put in place why would the RFL advance 100k so we could go out & splash the cash.

In short Moore & Co tried getting the club for nothing , paying the debts of OK Bulls off with money not even generated yet that would hinder the club for a further 5 years 1.2 million owed 400k approx to Omar which was never in the plan to pay leaving 800k = 160k a year to find before any other expense yet we moan about not getting 100k & that’s our big gripe. So the directors are clueless & the RFL let them get this far so both are massively to blame.

The RFL are under massive pressure this year because if we did not get docked point and another club goes down there will be hell to pay in the Rugby world. We deserve a 6 point deduction end of IMO.

Franny & the players are getting on with it & not giving in unlike Moore & his board. Massive respect to Franny.
This plan is still more sensible than accepting and involving half sky money. Effectively Gerry and Omar where 'buying' the club over two year with its own money.

Do agree the error Moore has made is re loan to Omar. I assume that this was signed while Whitcut was still on the scene. Can only image the dealings going on at time, Moore has now renaged on a deal. However Omar is still the guarentor of the £200k council loan, as they stated it could n't be transfered without their approval. Struggle to have sympathy with Omar/Gerry when they engaged in profile raising activities such as concerts and signing additional players, while threatening the livelihoods of a group of players that I think we all agree have behaved with unbelievable composure and resiliance.

All this talk of Moore and the RFL is providing an excellent service to Omar and Gerry ( wouldn't be suprised if some post come directly from their respective camps). It destracts from the point that Bulls current position is the results of tabling a deal that reduced annual income by £650k pa and deserting the club as soon as they realised. Can someone confirm did the concert really create a £100k loss? or was this idle banter?

Moore may not have painted himself in the best light, but would Bulls be in that different position in his absence? He didn't agree sky deduction, sign player couldn't afford or spend money on Concerts/trips away etc

Good News re L Sutcliffe though. Franny deserves a medal!
[quote][p][bold]Loadofbull70[/bold] wrote: I don’t know how anyone can give credit to Mr Moore & his board ! between them all & the RFL the mess is bigger than ever. Moore does not have any money to investment or lump sum to invest in the club fact ! His plan was to pay creditors back over the next 5 years the source of his proposal was season ticket money forecasts generated over the next 5 seasons not this one of course. He was naive to think that this would satisfy the requirement of the RFL that all creditors would be paid back in full. Omar Khan was a creditor as he signed an agreement on a loan which made him liable for the payment of said loan. All Omar was asking for was this sum of money to pay back the loan he was liable for not the club. If Mr Moore & co were anything like what they preach this would have come out during the due diligence process & it did Moore was well aware of this debt but choose to try & double cross Omar Khan. Omar Khan is not stupid he`s a borderline crook but not stupid & he is logged as a creditor as are the RFL & Bradford council the rest of the creditors are peanuts. Moore realised his plan to pay off the creditors over the next 5 years was never going to happen if the club were not in super league & the RFL also finally twigged it was with the clubs future earning the creditors would be paid back. The RFL were then asked to advance SKY monies to the club to finish this season off. At this point the RFL agreed to help out but 6 points would be deducted & special measure put in place why would the RFL advance 100k so we could go out & splash the cash. In short Moore & Co tried getting the club for nothing , paying the debts of OK Bulls off with money not even generated yet that would hinder the club for a further 5 years 1.2 million owed 400k approx to Omar which was never in the plan to pay leaving 800k = 160k a year to find before any other expense yet we moan about not getting 100k & that’s our big gripe. So the directors are clueless & the RFL let them get this far so both are massively to blame. The RFL are under massive pressure this year because if we did not get docked point and another club goes down there will be hell to pay in the Rugby world. We deserve a 6 point deduction end of IMO. Franny & the players are getting on with it & not giving in unlike Moore & his board. Massive respect to Franny.[/p][/quote]This plan is still more sensible than accepting and involving half sky money. Effectively Gerry and Omar where 'buying' the club over two year with its own money. Do agree the error Moore has made is re loan to Omar. I assume that this was signed while Whitcut was still on the scene. Can only image the dealings going on at time, Moore has now renaged on a deal. However Omar is still the guarentor of the £200k council loan, as they stated it could n't be transfered without their approval. Struggle to have sympathy with Omar/Gerry when they engaged in profile raising activities such as concerts and signing additional players, while threatening the livelihoods of a group of players that I think we all agree have behaved with unbelievable composure and resiliance. All this talk of Moore and the RFL is providing an excellent service to Omar and Gerry ( wouldn't be suprised if some post come directly from their respective camps). It destracts from the point that Bulls current position is the results of tabling a deal that reduced annual income by £650k pa and deserting the club as soon as they realised. Can someone confirm did the concert really create a £100k loss? or was this idle banter? Moore may not have painted himself in the best light, but would Bulls be in that different position in his absence? He didn't agree sky deduction, sign player couldn't afford or spend money on Concerts/trips away etc Good News re L Sutcliffe though. Franny deserves a medal! grafter1980
  • Score: 3

5:44pm Tue 4 Mar 14

melon head says...

Loadofbull70 wrote:
I don’t know how anyone can give credit to Mr Moore & his board ! between them all & the RFL the mess is bigger than ever.

Moore does not have any money to investment or lump sum to invest in the club fact ! His plan was to pay creditors back over the next 5 years the source of his proposal was season ticket money forecasts generated over the next 5 seasons not this one of course.

He was naive to think that this would satisfy the requirement of the RFL that all creditors would be paid back in full. Omar Khan was a creditor as he signed an agreement on a loan which made him liable for the payment of said loan. All Omar was asking for was this sum of money to pay back the loan he was liable for not the club.

If Mr Moore & co were anything like what they preach this would have come out during the due diligence process & it did Moore was well aware of this debt but choose to try & double cross Omar Khan.

Omar Khan is not stupid he`s a borderline crook but not stupid & he is logged as a creditor as are the RFL & Bradford council the rest of the creditors are peanuts.

Moore realised his plan to pay off the creditors over the next 5 years was never going to happen if the club were not in super league & the RFL also finally twigged it was with the clubs future earning the creditors would be paid back. The RFL were then asked to advance SKY monies to the club to finish this season off.

At this point the RFL agreed to help out but 6 points would be deducted & special measure put in place why would the RFL advance 100k so we could go out & splash the cash.

In short Moore & Co tried getting the club for nothing , paying the debts of OK Bulls off with money not even generated yet that would hinder the club for a further 5 years 1.2 million owed 400k approx to Omar which was never in the plan to pay leaving 800k = 160k a year to find before any other expense yet we moan about not getting 100k & that’s our big gripe. So the directors are clueless & the RFL let them get this far so both are massively to blame.

The RFL are under massive pressure this year because if we did not get docked point and another club goes down there will be hell to pay in the Rugby world. We deserve a 6 point deduction end of IMO.

Franny & the players are getting on with it & not giving in unlike Moore & his board. Massive respect to Franny.
Your name at the top sums you and your thoughts up
[quote][p][bold]Loadofbull70[/bold] wrote: I don’t know how anyone can give credit to Mr Moore & his board ! between them all & the RFL the mess is bigger than ever. Moore does not have any money to investment or lump sum to invest in the club fact ! His plan was to pay creditors back over the next 5 years the source of his proposal was season ticket money forecasts generated over the next 5 seasons not this one of course. He was naive to think that this would satisfy the requirement of the RFL that all creditors would be paid back in full. Omar Khan was a creditor as he signed an agreement on a loan which made him liable for the payment of said loan. All Omar was asking for was this sum of money to pay back the loan he was liable for not the club. If Mr Moore & co were anything like what they preach this would have come out during the due diligence process & it did Moore was well aware of this debt but choose to try & double cross Omar Khan. Omar Khan is not stupid he`s a borderline crook but not stupid & he is logged as a creditor as are the RFL & Bradford council the rest of the creditors are peanuts. Moore realised his plan to pay off the creditors over the next 5 years was never going to happen if the club were not in super league & the RFL also finally twigged it was with the clubs future earning the creditors would be paid back. The RFL were then asked to advance SKY monies to the club to finish this season off. At this point the RFL agreed to help out but 6 points would be deducted & special measure put in place why would the RFL advance 100k so we could go out & splash the cash. In short Moore & Co tried getting the club for nothing , paying the debts of OK Bulls off with money not even generated yet that would hinder the club for a further 5 years 1.2 million owed 400k approx to Omar which was never in the plan to pay leaving 800k = 160k a year to find before any other expense yet we moan about not getting 100k & that’s our big gripe. So the directors are clueless & the RFL let them get this far so both are massively to blame. The RFL are under massive pressure this year because if we did not get docked point and another club goes down there will be hell to pay in the Rugby world. We deserve a 6 point deduction end of IMO. Franny & the players are getting on with it & not giving in unlike Moore & his board. Massive respect to Franny.[/p][/quote]Your name at the top sums you and your thoughts up melon head
  • Score: 7

5:53pm Tue 4 Mar 14

Sad bull says...

grafter1980 wrote:
Loadofbull70 wrote:
I don’t know how anyone can give credit to Mr Moore & his board ! between them all & the RFL the mess is bigger than ever.

Moore does not have any money to investment or lump sum to invest in the club fact ! His plan was to pay creditors back over the next 5 years the source of his proposal was season ticket money forecasts generated over the next 5 seasons not this one of course.

He was naive to think that this would satisfy the requirement of the RFL that all creditors would be paid back in full. Omar Khan was a creditor as he signed an agreement on a loan which made him liable for the payment of said loan. All Omar was asking for was this sum of money to pay back the loan he was liable for not the club.

If Mr Moore & co were anything like what they preach this would have come out during the due diligence process & it did Moore was well aware of this debt but choose to try & double cross Omar Khan.

Omar Khan is not stupid he`s a borderline crook but not stupid & he is logged as a creditor as are the RFL & Bradford council the rest of the creditors are peanuts.

Moore realised his plan to pay off the creditors over the next 5 years was never going to happen if the club were not in super league & the RFL also finally twigged it was with the clubs future earning the creditors would be paid back. The RFL were then asked to advance SKY monies to the club to finish this season off.

At this point the RFL agreed to help out but 6 points would be deducted & special measure put in place why would the RFL advance 100k so we could go out & splash the cash.

In short Moore & Co tried getting the club for nothing , paying the debts of OK Bulls off with money not even generated yet that would hinder the club for a further 5 years 1.2 million owed 400k approx to Omar which was never in the plan to pay leaving 800k = 160k a year to find before any other expense yet we moan about not getting 100k & that’s our big gripe. So the directors are clueless & the RFL let them get this far so both are massively to blame.

The RFL are under massive pressure this year because if we did not get docked point and another club goes down there will be hell to pay in the Rugby world. We deserve a 6 point deduction end of IMO.

Franny & the players are getting on with it & not giving in unlike Moore & his board. Massive respect to Franny.
This plan is still more sensible than accepting and involving half sky money. Effectively Gerry and Omar where 'buying' the club over two year with its own money.

Do agree the error Moore has made is re loan to Omar. I assume that this was signed while Whitcut was still on the scene. Can only image the dealings going on at time, Moore has now renaged on a deal. However Omar is still the guarentor of the £200k council loan, as they stated it could n't be transfered without their approval. Struggle to have sympathy with Omar/Gerry when they engaged in profile raising activities such as concerts and signing additional players, while threatening the livelihoods of a group of players that I think we all agree have behaved with unbelievable composure and resiliance.

All this talk of Moore and the RFL is providing an excellent service to Omar and Gerry ( wouldn't be suprised if some post come directly from their respective camps). It destracts from the point that Bulls current position is the results of tabling a deal that reduced annual income by £650k pa and deserting the club as soon as they realised. Can someone confirm did the concert really create a £100k loss? or was this idle banter?

Moore may not have painted himself in the best light, but would Bulls be in that different position in his absence? He didn't agree sky deduction, sign player couldn't afford or spend money on Concerts/trips away etc

Good News re L Sutcliffe though. Franny deserves a medal!
Totally agree regarding Omar and Gerry. If you believe what we are told, between junkets, expenses and failed concerts etc. they probably cost Bulls more than they put in in.

The problem is grafter 1980 you still seem to be clinging onto the fact that a white knight is waiting to ride over the hill with bags of cash. Don't you think if he were there he would have shown himself by now ?

Of course in an ideal world that is what is needed but it isn't going to happen.

The reality is, the only people interested in taking on the Bulls at this stage, are likely to be in the same situation as Moore and co. If we are lucky they might even be as committed to saving the Bulls.

That being the case, anybody will have to do what they did and that is what virtually all businesses do. Produce a cash flow.

Companies generally are not sitting on piles of cash. They operate using their cash flow, taking into account future revenues and expenditure. This is the most common way to fund any business coupled with an overdraft which the Bulls can't get because somebody sold off the only tangible asset, the ground, to the RFL.

This is what Moore and co did and it is absolutely legitimate. As stated in the article, they were projecting a shortfall of 500k initially, but following cost cutting and the arrival of a number of new sponsors, this was cut to just 100k in the current financial year ( I don't recall the word advance being used ).

To me given they were operating on half sky money, this is remarkable in itself and suggested a very tight ship, which is something which has been lacking at Odsal for a very long time.

Whether they would have pulled it off we will never know, but please don't suggest that a business which is being run using its own cash flow is somehow mildly crooked.

I am still hoping for the best but have a niggling feeling that our best chance of survival has been allowed to slip out of our grasp.
[quote][p][bold]grafter1980[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Loadofbull70[/bold] wrote: I don’t know how anyone can give credit to Mr Moore & his board ! between them all & the RFL the mess is bigger than ever. Moore does not have any money to investment or lump sum to invest in the club fact ! His plan was to pay creditors back over the next 5 years the source of his proposal was season ticket money forecasts generated over the next 5 seasons not this one of course. He was naive to think that this would satisfy the requirement of the RFL that all creditors would be paid back in full. Omar Khan was a creditor as he signed an agreement on a loan which made him liable for the payment of said loan. All Omar was asking for was this sum of money to pay back the loan he was liable for not the club. If Mr Moore & co were anything like what they preach this would have come out during the due diligence process & it did Moore was well aware of this debt but choose to try & double cross Omar Khan. Omar Khan is not stupid he`s a borderline crook but not stupid & he is logged as a creditor as are the RFL & Bradford council the rest of the creditors are peanuts. Moore realised his plan to pay off the creditors over the next 5 years was never going to happen if the club were not in super league & the RFL also finally twigged it was with the clubs future earning the creditors would be paid back. The RFL were then asked to advance SKY monies to the club to finish this season off. At this point the RFL agreed to help out but 6 points would be deducted & special measure put in place why would the RFL advance 100k so we could go out & splash the cash. In short Moore & Co tried getting the club for nothing , paying the debts of OK Bulls off with money not even generated yet that would hinder the club for a further 5 years 1.2 million owed 400k approx to Omar which was never in the plan to pay leaving 800k = 160k a year to find before any other expense yet we moan about not getting 100k & that’s our big gripe. So the directors are clueless & the RFL let them get this far so both are massively to blame. The RFL are under massive pressure this year because if we did not get docked point and another club goes down there will be hell to pay in the Rugby world. We deserve a 6 point deduction end of IMO. Franny & the players are getting on with it & not giving in unlike Moore & his board. Massive respect to Franny.[/p][/quote]This plan is still more sensible than accepting and involving half sky money. Effectively Gerry and Omar where 'buying' the club over two year with its own money. Do agree the error Moore has made is re loan to Omar. I assume that this was signed while Whitcut was still on the scene. Can only image the dealings going on at time, Moore has now renaged on a deal. However Omar is still the guarentor of the £200k council loan, as they stated it could n't be transfered without their approval. Struggle to have sympathy with Omar/Gerry when they engaged in profile raising activities such as concerts and signing additional players, while threatening the livelihoods of a group of players that I think we all agree have behaved with unbelievable composure and resiliance. All this talk of Moore and the RFL is providing an excellent service to Omar and Gerry ( wouldn't be suprised if some post come directly from their respective camps). It destracts from the point that Bulls current position is the results of tabling a deal that reduced annual income by £650k pa and deserting the club as soon as they realised. Can someone confirm did the concert really create a £100k loss? or was this idle banter? Moore may not have painted himself in the best light, but would Bulls be in that different position in his absence? He didn't agree sky deduction, sign player couldn't afford or spend money on Concerts/trips away etc Good News re L Sutcliffe though. Franny deserves a medal![/p][/quote]Totally agree regarding Omar and Gerry. If you believe what we are told, between junkets, expenses and failed concerts etc. they probably cost Bulls more than they put in in. The problem is grafter 1980 you still seem to be clinging onto the fact that a white knight is waiting to ride over the hill with bags of cash. Don't you think if he were there he would have shown himself by now ? Of course in an ideal world that is what is needed but it isn't going to happen. The reality is, the only people interested in taking on the Bulls at this stage, are likely to be in the same situation as Moore and co. If we are lucky they might even be as committed to saving the Bulls. That being the case, anybody will have to do what they did and that is what virtually all businesses do. Produce a cash flow. Companies generally are not sitting on piles of cash. They operate using their cash flow, taking into account future revenues and expenditure. This is the most common way to fund any business coupled with an overdraft which the Bulls can't get because somebody sold off the only tangible asset, the ground, to the RFL. This is what Moore and co did and it is absolutely legitimate. As stated in the article, they were projecting a shortfall of 500k initially, but following cost cutting and the arrival of a number of new sponsors, this was cut to just 100k in the current financial year ( I don't recall the word advance being used ). To me given they were operating on half sky money, this is remarkable in itself and suggested a very tight ship, which is something which has been lacking at Odsal for a very long time. Whether they would have pulled it off we will never know, but please don't suggest that a business which is being run using its own cash flow is somehow mildly crooked. I am still hoping for the best but have a niggling feeling that our best chance of survival has been allowed to slip out of our grasp. Sad bull
  • Score: 9

6:50pm Tue 4 Mar 14

spanglishbull.uk says...

Loadsofbull,
I have never said that the R.L. created the problems at Odsal.Of course the problem has been caused by massive overspending by Boards over the years.What I am saying is that the last Three Directors were doing everything in their power to right the wrongs but all they got from the R.L.were obstacle after obstacle put in their way.This is why I question the usefulness of Red Hall.The records at their attempts to oversee their own respective clubs speak volumes for their business acumen.Now it appears that the true picture of what happened at last weeks meeting has not been forthcoming.Or,put it another way,somebody is not telling the truth.I will leave you to decide this.My own personal opinion is that if the R.L. are the ones telling the truth come out into the open and let the Clubs and Supporters of all clubs know the facts instead of stating a response will be in private.WHY?Do you honestly think that Mr Moore and Co.are silly enough to threaten Legal Action if they are not telling the truth.If that is the case surely the R.L.will let them go ahead and respond in front of a Court of Law.Not very likely though is it.
Loadsofbull, I have never said that the R.L. created the problems at Odsal.Of course the problem has been caused by massive overspending by Boards over the years.What I am saying is that the last Three Directors were doing everything in their power to right the wrongs but all they got from the R.L.were obstacle after obstacle put in their way.This is why I question the usefulness of Red Hall.The records at their attempts to oversee their own respective clubs speak volumes for their business acumen.Now it appears that the true picture of what happened at last weeks meeting has not been forthcoming.Or,put it another way,somebody is not telling the truth.I will leave you to decide this.My own personal opinion is that if the R.L. are the ones telling the truth come out into the open and let the Clubs and Supporters of all clubs know the facts instead of stating a response will be in private.WHY?Do you honestly think that Mr Moore and Co.are silly enough to threaten Legal Action if they are not telling the truth.If that is the case surely the R.L.will let them go ahead and respond in front of a Court of Law.Not very likely though is it. spanglishbull.uk
  • Score: 5

8:03pm Tue 4 Mar 14

Sad bull says...

Just reflecting on the situation and maybe I am being naive but what if the RFL said SORRY Moore and co we should have paid more attention to your revised business plan and cash flow and Moore and co say SORRY we maybe overreacted to what we saw as a slight on our business acumen ?

Just put the egos aside and think about the Bulls. please !

Maybe an older ( and hopefully wiser ) mans perspective ?
Just reflecting on the situation and maybe I am being naive but what if the RFL said SORRY Moore and co we should have paid more attention to your revised business plan and cash flow and Moore and co say SORRY we maybe overreacted to what we saw as a slight on our business acumen ? Just put the egos aside and think about the Bulls. please ! Maybe an older ( and hopefully wiser ) mans perspective ? Sad bull
  • Score: -1

9:07pm Tue 4 Mar 14

oddshapedballs says...

Loadofbull70 wrote:
Reading Sheffield & Spanglish`s post they seem to think the RFL have caused this ! they have not helped but it is pure and simple a fault of successive Bradford board level mismanagement end of story. The club has been allowed to run like a hobby not a business by people who are clueless about both Rugby & running a club.
Think its time certain people on here woke up & accepted what`s gone on is our own fault nobody else’s.

Caisley – Allowed Noble to break the salary cap several times resulting in big fines. He allow Noble to over spend. Singing Morley for 5 games 25k !
Hood – Allowed McNamara to spend the full cap on dross stating the board do not get involved with signings. Rikki Sherriffe , Michael Worrincy ect mega buck & were total dross.
We allowed class to leave real home grown talent only to be replaced with expensive imports & over paid uk players not wanted elsewhere.
Omar Khan - He wanted to make Bradford great again but totally over estimated the lack of interest in Bradford Bulls he though fans would come flocking back & failed. So he dipped the till & raided the cupboard.
Mike Moore – 10 Bob millionaire who never had anything to invest & like Omar wanted to play the figures.
Apart from the spelling & grammar a very good and accurate post!
[quote][p][bold]Loadofbull70[/bold] wrote: Reading Sheffield & Spanglish`s post they seem to think the RFL have caused this ! they have not helped but it is pure and simple a fault of successive Bradford board level mismanagement end of story. The club has been allowed to run like a hobby not a business by people who are clueless about both Rugby & running a club. Think its time certain people on here woke up & accepted what`s gone on is our own fault nobody else’s. Caisley – Allowed Noble to break the salary cap several times resulting in big fines. He allow Noble to over spend. Singing Morley for 5 games 25k ! Hood – Allowed McNamara to spend the full cap on dross stating the board do not get involved with signings. Rikki Sherriffe , Michael Worrincy ect mega buck & were total dross. We allowed class to leave real home grown talent only to be replaced with expensive imports & over paid uk players not wanted elsewhere. Omar Khan - He wanted to make Bradford great again but totally over estimated the lack of interest in Bradford Bulls he though fans would come flocking back & failed. So he dipped the till & raided the cupboard. Mike Moore – 10 Bob millionaire who never had anything to invest & like Omar wanted to play the figures.[/p][/quote]Apart from the spelling & grammar a very good and accurate post! oddshapedballs
  • Score: -3

11:26pm Tue 4 Mar 14

Enough is enough14 says...

I'm sorry but the RFL are far from blameless on the problems of the last 9months or so. Was it not the same governing body that put the bulls on a probationary licence after the 1st administration and then after a year of looking at the books and Omar's business plan decided that there was no further reason to worry. Fast forward a couple of months and mountains of debt are found in the clubs books. So either Omar is secretly a magician and made the debts disappear every time the RFL visited odsal to inspect or the so called governing body have employed the worlds worst accountant. Either way you look at it; the RFL are incompetent or are so gullible that they were easily duped by a curry man who had no previous experience with a sporting club!

A leading sports governing body...yeah right!
I'm sorry but the RFL are far from blameless on the problems of the last 9months or so. Was it not the same governing body that put the bulls on a probationary licence after the 1st administration and then after a year of looking at the books and Omar's business plan decided that there was no further reason to worry. Fast forward a couple of months and mountains of debt are found in the clubs books. So either Omar is secretly a magician and made the debts disappear every time the RFL visited odsal to inspect or the so called governing body have employed the worlds worst accountant. Either way you look at it; the RFL are incompetent or are so gullible that they were easily duped by a curry man who had no previous experience with a sporting club! A leading sports governing body...yeah right! Enough is enough14
  • Score: 3

2:46pm Tue 11 Mar 14

grafter1980 says...

Sad bull wrote:
grafter1980 wrote:
Loadofbull70 wrote:
I don’t know how anyone can give credit to Mr Moore & his board ! between them all & the RFL the mess is bigger than ever.

Moore does not have any money to investment or lump sum to invest in the club fact ! His plan was to pay creditors back over the next 5 years the source of his proposal was season ticket money forecasts generated over the next 5 seasons not this one of course.

He was naive to think that this would satisfy the requirement of the RFL that all creditors would be paid back in full. Omar Khan was a creditor as he signed an agreement on a loan which made him liable for the payment of said loan. All Omar was asking for was this sum of money to pay back the loan he was liable for not the club.

If Mr Moore & co were anything like what they preach this would have come out during the due diligence process & it did Moore was well aware of this debt but choose to try & double cross Omar Khan.

Omar Khan is not stupid he`s a borderline crook but not stupid & he is logged as a creditor as are the RFL & Bradford council the rest of the creditors are peanuts.

Moore realised his plan to pay off the creditors over the next 5 years was never going to happen if the club were not in super league & the RFL also finally twigged it was with the clubs future earning the creditors would be paid back. The RFL were then asked to advance SKY monies to the club to finish this season off.

At this point the RFL agreed to help out but 6 points would be deducted & special measure put in place why would the RFL advance 100k so we could go out & splash the cash.

In short Moore & Co tried getting the club for nothing , paying the debts of OK Bulls off with money not even generated yet that would hinder the club for a further 5 years 1.2 million owed 400k approx to Omar which was never in the plan to pay leaving 800k = 160k a year to find before any other expense yet we moan about not getting 100k & that’s our big gripe. So the directors are clueless & the RFL let them get this far so both are massively to blame.

The RFL are under massive pressure this year because if we did not get docked point and another club goes down there will be hell to pay in the Rugby world. We deserve a 6 point deduction end of IMO.

Franny & the players are getting on with it & not giving in unlike Moore & his board. Massive respect to Franny.
This plan is still more sensible than accepting and involving half sky money. Effectively Gerry and Omar where 'buying' the club over two year with its own money.

Do agree the error Moore has made is re loan to Omar. I assume that this was signed while Whitcut was still on the scene. Can only image the dealings going on at time, Moore has now renaged on a deal. However Omar is still the guarentor of the £200k council loan, as they stated it could n't be transfered without their approval. Struggle to have sympathy with Omar/Gerry when they engaged in profile raising activities such as concerts and signing additional players, while threatening the livelihoods of a group of players that I think we all agree have behaved with unbelievable composure and resiliance.

All this talk of Moore and the RFL is providing an excellent service to Omar and Gerry ( wouldn't be suprised if some post come directly from their respective camps). It destracts from the point that Bulls current position is the results of tabling a deal that reduced annual income by £650k pa and deserting the club as soon as they realised. Can someone confirm did the concert really create a £100k loss? or was this idle banter?

Moore may not have painted himself in the best light, but would Bulls be in that different position in his absence? He didn't agree sky deduction, sign player couldn't afford or spend money on Concerts/trips away etc

Good News re L Sutcliffe though. Franny deserves a medal!
Totally agree regarding Omar and Gerry. If you believe what we are told, between junkets, expenses and failed concerts etc. they probably cost Bulls more than they put in in.

The problem is grafter 1980 you still seem to be clinging onto the fact that a white knight is waiting to ride over the hill with bags of cash. Don't you think if he were there he would have shown himself by now ?

Of course in an ideal world that is what is needed but it isn't going to happen.

The reality is, the only people interested in taking on the Bulls at this stage, are likely to be in the same situation as Moore and co. If we are lucky they might even be as committed to saving the Bulls.

That being the case, anybody will have to do what they did and that is what virtually all businesses do. Produce a cash flow.

Companies generally are not sitting on piles of cash. They operate using their cash flow, taking into account future revenues and expenditure. This is the most common way to fund any business coupled with an overdraft which the Bulls can't get because somebody sold off the only tangible asset, the ground, to the RFL.

This is what Moore and co did and it is absolutely legitimate. As stated in the article, they were projecting a shortfall of 500k initially, but following cost cutting and the arrival of a number of new sponsors, this was cut to just 100k in the current financial year ( I don't recall the word advance being used ).

To me given they were operating on half sky money, this is remarkable in itself and suggested a very tight ship, which is something which has been lacking at Odsal for a very long time.

Whether they would have pulled it off we will never know, but please don't suggest that a business which is being run using its own cash flow is somehow mildly crooked.

I am still hoping for the best but have a niggling feeling that our best chance of survival has been allowed to slip out of our grasp.
I agree, not suggesting anything wrong in Moore plan far more sensible than Omar and Gerry, who then pretended that the sky money deduction that was 'forced' apon them.

Agree also about no 'white night', again Moore business plan seamed to accept this where as Sutcliffe in particular forever openly rattling the begging bowl.

Also Moore et al have always been totally explicit about the fact they were not investing significant amounts in the club. Therefore Moore personal wealth which seams to be referred to a number of times by posters is irrelevant.

The smoke and mirrors re investment came from Gerry and Omar. Gerry said he has put in all the spare money he has? Whatever Omar put in he wants back, £900k ????. Therefore suspect the singular biggest investor to this point is Bradford Council.

Agree with spanglish above, looks like RFL were happy for Moore etc to be involved when the club was dropped like a hot potato, but now they appear to want some else? Never agreed with the points deduction because it doesn't punish those that created this situation and only serves to punish those trying to resolve it.
[quote][p][bold]Sad bull[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]grafter1980[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Loadofbull70[/bold] wrote: I don’t know how anyone can give credit to Mr Moore & his board ! between them all & the RFL the mess is bigger than ever. Moore does not have any money to investment or lump sum to invest in the club fact ! His plan was to pay creditors back over the next 5 years the source of his proposal was season ticket money forecasts generated over the next 5 seasons not this one of course. He was naive to think that this would satisfy the requirement of the RFL that all creditors would be paid back in full. Omar Khan was a creditor as he signed an agreement on a loan which made him liable for the payment of said loan. All Omar was asking for was this sum of money to pay back the loan he was liable for not the club. If Mr Moore & co were anything like what they preach this would have come out during the due diligence process & it did Moore was well aware of this debt but choose to try & double cross Omar Khan. Omar Khan is not stupid he`s a borderline crook but not stupid & he is logged as a creditor as are the RFL & Bradford council the rest of the creditors are peanuts. Moore realised his plan to pay off the creditors over the next 5 years was never going to happen if the club were not in super league & the RFL also finally twigged it was with the clubs future earning the creditors would be paid back. The RFL were then asked to advance SKY monies to the club to finish this season off. At this point the RFL agreed to help out but 6 points would be deducted & special measure put in place why would the RFL advance 100k so we could go out & splash the cash. In short Moore & Co tried getting the club for nothing , paying the debts of OK Bulls off with money not even generated yet that would hinder the club for a further 5 years 1.2 million owed 400k approx to Omar which was never in the plan to pay leaving 800k = 160k a year to find before any other expense yet we moan about not getting 100k & that’s our big gripe. So the directors are clueless & the RFL let them get this far so both are massively to blame. The RFL are under massive pressure this year because if we did not get docked point and another club goes down there will be hell to pay in the Rugby world. We deserve a 6 point deduction end of IMO. Franny & the players are getting on with it & not giving in unlike Moore & his board. Massive respect to Franny.[/p][/quote]This plan is still more sensible than accepting and involving half sky money. Effectively Gerry and Omar where 'buying' the club over two year with its own money. Do agree the error Moore has made is re loan to Omar. I assume that this was signed while Whitcut was still on the scene. Can only image the dealings going on at time, Moore has now renaged on a deal. However Omar is still the guarentor of the £200k council loan, as they stated it could n't be transfered without their approval. Struggle to have sympathy with Omar/Gerry when they engaged in profile raising activities such as concerts and signing additional players, while threatening the livelihoods of a group of players that I think we all agree have behaved with unbelievable composure and resiliance. All this talk of Moore and the RFL is providing an excellent service to Omar and Gerry ( wouldn't be suprised if some post come directly from their respective camps). It destracts from the point that Bulls current position is the results of tabling a deal that reduced annual income by £650k pa and deserting the club as soon as they realised. Can someone confirm did the concert really create a £100k loss? or was this idle banter? Moore may not have painted himself in the best light, but would Bulls be in that different position in his absence? He didn't agree sky deduction, sign player couldn't afford or spend money on Concerts/trips away etc Good News re L Sutcliffe though. Franny deserves a medal![/p][/quote]Totally agree regarding Omar and Gerry. If you believe what we are told, between junkets, expenses and failed concerts etc. they probably cost Bulls more than they put in in. The problem is grafter 1980 you still seem to be clinging onto the fact that a white knight is waiting to ride over the hill with bags of cash. Don't you think if he were there he would have shown himself by now ? Of course in an ideal world that is what is needed but it isn't going to happen. The reality is, the only people interested in taking on the Bulls at this stage, are likely to be in the same situation as Moore and co. If we are lucky they might even be as committed to saving the Bulls. That being the case, anybody will have to do what they did and that is what virtually all businesses do. Produce a cash flow. Companies generally are not sitting on piles of cash. They operate using their cash flow, taking into account future revenues and expenditure. This is the most common way to fund any business coupled with an overdraft which the Bulls can't get because somebody sold off the only tangible asset, the ground, to the RFL. This is what Moore and co did and it is absolutely legitimate. As stated in the article, they were projecting a shortfall of 500k initially, but following cost cutting and the arrival of a number of new sponsors, this was cut to just 100k in the current financial year ( I don't recall the word advance being used ). To me given they were operating on half sky money, this is remarkable in itself and suggested a very tight ship, which is something which has been lacking at Odsal for a very long time. Whether they would have pulled it off we will never know, but please don't suggest that a business which is being run using its own cash flow is somehow mildly crooked. I am still hoping for the best but have a niggling feeling that our best chance of survival has been allowed to slip out of our grasp.[/p][/quote]I agree, not suggesting anything wrong in Moore plan far more sensible than Omar and Gerry, who then pretended that the sky money deduction that was 'forced' apon them. Agree also about no 'white night', again Moore business plan seamed to accept this where as Sutcliffe in particular forever openly rattling the begging bowl. Also Moore et al have always been totally explicit about the fact they were not investing significant amounts in the club. Therefore Moore personal wealth which seams to be referred to a number of times by posters is irrelevant. The smoke and mirrors re investment came from Gerry and Omar. Gerry said he has put in all the spare money he has? Whatever Omar put in he wants back, £900k ????. Therefore suspect the singular biggest investor to this point is Bradford Council. Agree with spanglish above, looks like RFL were happy for Moore etc to be involved when the club was dropped like a hot potato, but now they appear to want some else? Never agreed with the points deduction because it doesn't punish those that created this situation and only serves to punish those trying to resolve it. grafter1980
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