Comment: Flagging up Bradford Fire victims did not sit well with me (From Bradford Telegraph and Argus)
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Comment: Flagging up Bradford Fire victims did not sit well with me
10:10am Saturday 2nd March 2013 in Sport
By Simon Parker, Bradford City Reporter
The tracksuit message was a nice touch by the club but the chants and large 'branded' flag arguably cheapen the gravity of the disaster
I’m not sure if I should have an opinion on this because I wasn’t there.
I don’t pretend to know the grief and agony that people suffered – and continue to do so – since the events of May 11, 1985.
I couldn’t comprehend what it was like. Nobody who wasn’t there that fateful day could.
But I do know that Bradford as a community marks the tragedy of Valley Parade with respect, restraint and decorum every year.
There is a minute’s complete silence before the kick-off of the final home game and then the emotional memorial service in Centenary Square on the anniversary. That is how it has always been.
It is not a showy, very public demonstration of one of the biggest disasters in British sporting history. That is not what the survivors or relatives of those who tragically perished at a football match would want.
Those 56 poor souls are always with the families – and with us. And they always will be. You surely don’t need to stand up and clap and sing a song to prove that
The on-going remembrance for those caught up in what went on comes from the regular donations towards the Burns Unit that was created in the fire’s aftermath. It has become the charity of choice for many around the city.
But suddenly the number 56 has become more than the horrific figure of those fans who were unable to escape the flames. It is in danger of becoming a brand; a fashion even.
City’s decision to pay tribute to the victims at Wembley was taken in good faith. They wanted to do something that stood out a bit more than the black tinge that has always been included in the kit.
On one of the biggest days in the club’s history, it felt right to mark their memory in some fitting manner.
The design on the tracksuit tops worn by the players for the pre-match walk out was tastefully done – “56, always with us” was a message that said it all.
I don’t know, of course, but I would like to think the families directly involved were appreciative of the historical sentiment on such a monumental occasion for the present-day team.
What may have left them uneasy was the knock-on effect in the stands on Sunday.
The huge flag that passed over the heads of the City supporters had been a bone of contention with some in the build-up to the game.
The absence of any advertising logos, whether that was forced by Wembley or otherwise, at least prevented it being hijacked in any way for commercial purposes.
It was a striking image for the TV audience across the world. But was it really necessary?
Then there was the applause in the 56th minute and the “always remember” chant.
Again, I’ve got no history with the shocking events of 28 years ago, other than what I have learned from living within this community. But it seemed to me a slightly excessive method of highlighting a tragedy that has traditionally been marked in a private, low-key way.
The same songs and applause rang out at Valley Parade on Wednesday. Does that mean it will become a regular event in the vogue of Aston Villa clapping Stilian Petrov or Chelsea their previous manager?
Rather than keeping the disaster in the public eye, does this not go the other way and “cheapen” its gravity by mimicking what goes on elsewhere?
I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong. But it doesn’t sit comfortably.Liverpool have always been more vociferous about Hillsborough. But that is a totally different cause.
The families of the victims there were fighting two decades of injustice to write the vile wrong that their relatives and friends were in any way to blame for what happened. That was just cause to keep everything in the public eye before they were finally vindicated.
Valley Parade was a tragic, obscene accident; an horrific misfortune that could have occurred at the time at any of countless football grounds held up by the same decaying wooden structures. Shockingly it happened at Bradford.
When I first moved up here 13 years ago, it did not take me long to understand that the fire is always with those who were there. Those 56 poor souls are always with them – and with us.
And they always will be. You surely don’t need to stand up and clap and sing a song to prove that.
Comments(126)
TheApprentice
says...
10:32am Sat 2 Mar 13
Hund01
says...
10:40am Sat 2 Mar 13
This is a great article and hopefully it will bring about a positive debate between the older and younger fans.
Both sets need to understand each other's emotions on this subject and hopefully work together and come to a common agreement about how best we can remember and pay tribute to this terrible event and those fans who lost their lives on that terrible day.
I am so glad that the proposed company sponsorship of that flag was dropped as it would really have degraded and insulted the memory. Whoever came up with that idea has no respect whatsoever to those who lost their lives and their families.
BigFigure
says...
10:41am Sat 2 Mar 13
Bradfordflag56
says...
10:46am Sat 2 Mar 13
Skiptonbantam
says...
10:46am Sat 2 Mar 13
I was there that horrific day. It changed my life forever. You realise what true values are ie friends and family, living life to the full.
The club remembrance was spot on, but it was the clubs remembrance.
The flag was spot on. It was the fans paying tribute. After all it was 56 fans who lost their lives that day.
But this is where i agree with you, it should have stopped there. The whole world saw that the club and fans where as one in their tribute.
So i beg the fans who have the idea that 56 is a trigger point for outburst of chanting to stop right now. I saw what went on at both matches and it was obvious that some of you were not even born that fateful day. It is misguided so i ask you again to please stop.
ukdj67
says...
10:51am Sat 2 Mar 13
fansince1956
says...
10:53am Sat 2 Mar 13
TheApprentice
says...
11:01am Sat 2 Mar 13
SuttonGraeme
says...
11:01am Sat 2 Mar 13
Each of us who were there in 1985 remember in our own ways, personally for me that is to shed a private tear each year.
We don't need the public displays of emotion, that day and its victims will never be forgotten.
Bantams4ever
says...
11:08am Sat 2 Mar 13
However, not every home game for the rest of the season.
This was our finest hour for a hundred years, the fire was the worst day in our entire history, what better way of showing the world that we will never forget our tragedy
bobbyzelmut
says...
11:24am Sat 2 Mar 13
I'll admit that the flag looked superb and well done to Daniel ^^^ for eventually sorting something out that was acceptable to the fans and, more importantly, the families (I was sat with one of the families and they were visibly moved).
The chants need to stop. They are inappropriate and, whilst I am sure they are well intentioned, smack to me of wanting to be seen to be grieving. I don't like being told how to feel and know that a prearranged chant cannot ever encapsulate the feelings about what happened that day.
The fans of Liverpool chant for the people who were lost at Hillsborough not out of grief, but out of a desire to see justice for their loved ones - ordinary football fans who were maligned by senior police officers who were busier saving their reputations than the people in the stands.
We don't have a wrong to right in the same way. We have only the loss of the 56 fans to remember.
I think we should do it in the way that we have always done it. Quietly, respectfully and with true dignity. I think that is what would make those that were lost most proud.
spearmint wino
says...
11:42am Sat 2 Mar 13
As for this applause on the 56th minute at games and "standup for the 56" I am not keen on that and I think it's a bit tacky. Seems to be fashionable at the moment to clap at on certain minutes in games.
Exiled in Brum
says...
11:44am Sat 2 Mar 13
I also agree that most of the remembrance at Wembley was well done. I initially thought the idea of the 56th minute was a good one and I stood and clapped. Now I feel uneasy - why?
A number of reasons, but the 56th minute comes in the heat of the game and not in a time of reflection. To remember we need to reflect not clap or chant.
Note as we clapped on Sunday The Duke got sent off and we conceded the penalty. All of a sudden it felt inappropriate to be clapping when the oposition were celebrating.
56 Always with us.
rattusrattus
says...
11:49am Sat 2 Mar 13
lozkel
says...
11:50am Sat 2 Mar 13
Bradfordflag56 wrote:i was there on that tragic day in 1985 and i think the flag at wembley was a fantastic gesture for the 56 who perished,as for the chanting and clapping on 56 minutes at every game,dont think its really needed as i think about the 56 every time i enter the stadium R.I.P
Well i thought i would sign up and put my point across. I am Daniel the creator of the group that made the flag. I came up with the idea after the second leg of the Aston villa game. My intention was to remember the 56 on one of the biggest days in the clubs history. Most of them would have been there had the tragic events not have unfolded. This was my way of making sure they were with us. I wanted it to bring people together not divide people. In regards to the chanting on 56 min at the daggers game i fully agree, i dont like it and it made me feel uncomfortable. However how you can link my flag at wembley and spontaneous chanting at every game? i do not know. I have many friends and family members on my page that lost people in the fire and they are fully behind the flag, i would also appreciate if the t and a contact me so they can do a article to put our side across im sick of all the abuse im getting for something i did to bring us all closer and to remember our brothers and sisters that could not be there on Sunday. Also the club and family members of those who died are fully behind the flag. I.E. the people that matter.
bigang02
says...
11:53am Sat 2 Mar 13
Bradfordflag56 wrote:totally agree.it is only the people that understand that matter who cares what other people think or say. and if any1 noticed at wembley it was the 55th minute that matt duke got sent off so the applause thing was overruled by that anyway.
Well i thought i would sign up and put my point across. I am Daniel the creator of the group that made the flag. I came up with the idea after the second leg of the Aston villa game. My intention was to remember the 56 on one of the biggest days in the clubs history. Most of them would have been there had the tragic events not have unfolded. This was my way of making sure they were with us. I wanted it to bring people together not divide people. In regards to the chanting on 56 min at the daggers game i fully agree, i dont like it and it made me feel uncomfortable. However how you can link my flag at wembley and spontaneous chanting at every game? i do not know. I have many friends and family members on my page that lost people in the fire and they are fully behind the flag, i would also appreciate if the t and a contact me so they can do a article to put our side across im sick of all the abuse im getting for something i did to bring us all closer and to remember our brothers and sisters that could not be there on Sunday. Also the club and family members of those who died are fully behind the flag. I.E. the people that matter.
bunnybamtam
says...
12:19pm Sat 2 Mar 13
chubbycheeks
says...
12:31pm Sat 2 Mar 13
I personally LOVED the idea of the flag, I'm not a massive fanatic of football and was so impressed that some regular guys wanted to make sure that they brought something to show that fans had not forgotten and the 56 were there with them because I felt that was the most important thing to come of Wembley.
And not only that, but nothing bad came of it. The guy who organised it has now found his calling in life, he continues to raise money for the Burns Unit and getting people involved in other events, that came from the making of the flag, you can't argue that's a bad thing?
And the main aspect that is seen of Bradford now is how supportive our fans our, how we stood and clapped every minute of the game and after- THAT'S how people see us and that makes me proud.
As for the chanting, it may not be necessary or ideal and cheapens the message if it happens every game but the fans mean well, that's their way of showing support. And does it matter if they were alive when it happened or not? I wasn't, but it can still effect me, I have family that was there, I know people who have family that died. The remembrance is ageless.
If any family of the 56 saw how the issue was tearing fans apart, I'm sure it would make them sick, its not a point to be arguing over.
Basically, my point is that this shouldn't split fans! We're known for our astounding support and sense of community- that's important. Don't ruin it over people showing support in different ways.
Pondlover
says...
12:41pm Sat 2 Mar 13
You pressed ahead regardless when people raised sound objections.
You pressed ahead regardless and deleted all sound & sensible criticism.
You pressed ahead regardless when you knew that you wouldn't have got enough donations to cover the flag costs.
So, you went and sold the memory of 56 dead fans to a commercial enterprise to enable "your" flag, not "ours" to be made.
You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.
TomCoops
says...
12:51pm Sat 2 Mar 13
I'm also a fan who loves joining in with the singing and chanting to try and create a great atmosphere for our team.
With Villa, it was arranged between clubs and publicised that both sets of vans would applaud Petrov and the 56 throughout that entire minute.
At Valley Parade, because of Nakhi's goal, we only cheered for the 56.
At Villa Park, because of Hanson's, only the 19th minute for Petrov.
We also chanted for the 56 against Arsenal I seem to recall, but can't remember if that was pre-arranged and publicised by the club.
Normally, always remember the 56 is not chanted at home games as far as I recall, as it should be about the last home game of the season.
But perhaps at the Daggers game it was chanted, as we wanted to follow Mark Lawn's line, create a carnival atmosphere and give our heroes a loud reception home.
Bradfordflag56
says...
12:56pm Sat 2 Mar 13
You pressed ahead regardless when people raised sound objections.
You pressed ahead regardless and deleted all sound & sensible criticism.
You pressed ahead regardless when you knew that you wouldn't have got enough donations to cover the flag costs.
So, you went and sold the memory of 56 dead fans to a commercial enterprise to enable "your" flag, not "ours" to be made.
You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.
Excuse me i sold nothing and did you see any adverts on the flag i think not, in regards to deleting peoples negative comments what a load of hogwash. I got this flag sorted with the blessing of family members who llst loved ones in 85, they were happy with it so am i. Ashamed of my self not in a million years pal. Next time you raise money for the burns unit drop me a line yeah.
Bradfordflag56
says...
1:01pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Pondlover wrote:Excuse me i sold nothing and did you see any adverts on the flag i think not, in regards to deleting peoples negative comments what a load of hogwash. I got this flag sorted with the blessing of family members who llst loved ones in 85, they were happy with it so am i. Ashamed of my self not in a million years pal. Next time you raise money for the burns unit drop me a line yeah.
Daniel, you have zero moral high ground.
You pressed ahead regardless when people raised sound objections.
You pressed ahead regardless and deleted all sound & sensible criticism.
You pressed ahead regardless when you knew that you wouldn't have got enough donations to cover the flag costs.
So, you went and sold the memory of 56 dead fans to a commercial enterprise to enable "your" flag, not "ours" to be made.
You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.
AMBantam
says...
1:12pm Sat 2 Mar 13
We have to remember that each generation has a different outlook on life (as we would have compared to our own granparents etc).
I personally thought the flag at Wembley was a good touch, however the chanting at every match in the 56th minute is a bit excessive, however I can appreciate that a new generation is here and when I am gone, they are the ones that will keep the memory of the 56 alive and for that, I will not begrudge them what they are doing. I simply do not take part in the chant and at the same time I will not take offence.
We should be careful not to be too sturn on the younger fans now so that they no longer carry on the rememberance at the risk of it becoming a faded and distant memory.
Pondlover
says...
1:24pm Sat 2 Mar 13
It beggars belief that you could agree for that to happen, a "sponsored" remembrance flag, good grief!
The advertising was cut off because Wembley forced it's removal. You'd have gone ahead with it.
ComerBantam
says...
1:35pm Sat 2 Mar 13
I don't think there's a right or wrong way to remember the victims or show support to their families. Generally my view is simply each to their own.
But it's been almost 30 years, and this has been the biggest stage we've had and a chance to embrace our temporary nationwide spotlight.
Who knows, it may be another 30 years until we get it again!..
Everyone associated with this club knows we don't NEED a giant flag to jog the memory, but to say it some how cheapens the respectful way we remember is, in my humble opinion wrong..
I've never been as proud to call myself a City fan as i was last week at Wembley. And the flag brought a lump to my throat and a tear to my eye. I fully feel it was the right thing to do.
I wasn't there on the day of the fire. But how many current Liverpool fans were at Hillsborough on the day of that particular tragedy? It's irrelevant.
The lads behind the flag deserve a huge congratulations.. I no longer live in the U.K, and the sight of the Wembley flag has raised awareness of the fire outside of Bradford.. So well done lads!!!!
Bradfordflag56
says...
1:46pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Pondlover wrote:I have nothing more to say to you, there was no advert on it. End of.
Yes, I did see advertising on the flag Daniel. In big bold letters. The advertising that enabled the flag to be made.
It beggars belief that you could agree for that to happen, a "sponsored" remembrance flag, good grief!
The advertising was cut off because Wembley forced it's removal. You'd have gone ahead with it.
Bradfordflag56
says...
1:47pm Sat 2 Mar 13
ComerBantam wrote:Thank you for your comments, and understand what we are about unlike some.
Sorry, but i disagree with the article..
I don't think there's a right or wrong way to remember the victims or show support to their families. Generally my view is simply each to their own.
But it's been almost 30 years, and this has been the biggest stage we've had and a chance to embrace our temporary nationwide spotlight.
Who knows, it may be another 30 years until we get it again!..
Everyone associated with this club knows we don't NEED a giant flag to jog the memory, but to say it some how cheapens the respectful way we remember is, in my humble opinion wrong..
I've never been as proud to call myself a City fan as i was last week at Wembley. And the flag brought a lump to my throat and a tear to my eye. I fully feel it was the right thing to do.
I wasn't there on the day of the fire. But how many current Liverpool fans were at Hillsborough on the day of that particular tragedy? It's irrelevant.
The lads behind the flag deserve a huge congratulations.. I no longer live in the U.K, and the sight of the Wembley flag has raised awareness of the fire outside of Bradford.. So well done lads!!!!
Alvechurch73
says...
1:48pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Sadly, for me, this issue is the culmination of a sad divide that was brewing and bubbling during the lead up to the Wembley final; that of season ticket holders verses so called plastic supporters. Someone mentioned earlier that many of those instigating the chanting for the 56 were not even born that day. I would hazard a guess that many of them are the same people who refer to those of us who are not season ticket holders as plastics. Those of us who were there that day, and have been there season in season out up to that day, have BCFC in our hearts, in our blood and in our veins. We understand the culture and history of our club; we understand exactly the emotional impact of that day in 1985. Just because we are no longer season ticket holders does not mean we are not real supporters. I worried during the run up to Wembley that there was a group of people intent on somehow claiming ownership of support and creating a closed shop atmosphere, I fear now that those same people are attempting to hijack the memory of that day and diminish the magnitude and emotion felt by all of us who were there that day by unnecessary cheap and repetitive chanting. Please stop and let's all unite and support our team in the run in to the season's end.
trembleywembley
says...
1:50pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Hund01
says...
1:57pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Pondlover
says...
2:12pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Bradfordflag56 wrote:You can't re-write history Daniel, you agreed to have big advert on the flag, you took cash over dignity!
Pondlover wrote:I have nothing more to say to you, there was no advert on it. End of.
Yes, I did see advertising on the flag Daniel. In big bold letters. The advertising that enabled the flag to be made.
It beggars belief that you could agree for that to happen, a "sponsored" remembrance flag, good grief!
The advertising was cut off because Wembley forced it's removal. You'd have gone ahead with it.
In case you forgot, here you go:-
http://www.sabotaget
imes.com/reportage/b
radford-city-fire-fl
ag-stop-cashing-in-o
n-tragedy/
jackez20591
says...
2:21pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Phrases like this is for the 56 didnt sound right to me.
It may sound wrong to some people but its not something that needs remembering every game, or something that should be used to validate success. Remember it on the anniversary and by donations to the burn unit.
Pondlover
says...
2:21pm Sat 2 Mar 13
tyker2
says...
2:46pm Sat 2 Mar 13
On such a joyous occasion as a final was it really necessary? I respect all views but for me, no, it was not necessary and for people in our group on 24.02/2013 similar views were expressed whilst others said nothing preferring to remember in silence.
radiobantam1
says...
3:13pm Sat 2 Mar 13
I don't want BCFC and thier fans to become known as "professional mourners" like the minority of Liverpool fans - who drag up Hillsborough at each and every given opportunity.
The 30 - 40 minute session at the Fire memorial statue on 11th May annually and the 1 minute silence at the last home game of the season has been our way of doing things for 35 years or so.
Lets leave it at that and forget the modern add-on's.
The flag at Wembley was an excellent idea - as a one off.
Hund01
says...
3:25pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Even though I felt physically sick at the idea of commercials on the original flag, I think Daniel has had a steep learning curve in response to his initiative.
Maybe I am wrong but I now genuinely believe his original intention was a good one and he did not envisage the response or grief he caused to some.
Now if Daniel can put that behind him and use his initiative to both honourably respect the May 11 tragedy and encourage younger City fans to carry on the good work of raising money for the Burns Unit, which is a nobel cause, then he has my support.
But certainly all views need to be aired amicably right now in order to counter any future hurt and misunderstanding.
Waynus1971
says...
3:41pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Pondlover wrote:Pondlover or Pondlife? Who the h3ll made you judge and jury and your castigation of Daniel is bang out of order.
Instead of blundering on Daniel, why don't you take time out to consider the other opinions and, consider why Simon Parker has stuck his neck out and written this article in the T&A? There is is a loud & clear message and it's not difficult to find.
Parker did indeed write this thought provoking article and it has got some good debate. However the majority are in favour of the flag at Wembley, but not the chanting. Daniel had no part in the chanting, either in the earlier cup ties, at Wembley or against Daggenham...!
Can someone tell me the difference between players showing their respect with the tops(and Nike's profiteering) and the fans showing their respect by passing the flag around the stadium???? Perhaps a question for Parker himself!!
Bford18
says...
3:42pm Sat 2 Mar 13
As for the chants & claps I hate it, we have managed to remember for nearly 28 years without these additions at the 56th minute of each game (on Wednesday it started after 54 mins & some seconds).
One thing that hasn't been mentioned in all of this which i did not agree with is the club shop selling the 56 track suit tops at £50, approx double the price of the other track suit tops available in the club shop at the time.
Pondlover
says...
3:45pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Hund01 wrote:I agree Hund01, I too believe he set out with genuine intentions. But, the lack of donations combined with the pressure of the timescale led him to behave badly. He seems to exist in a FB world of "likes" and any criticism whatsover appears to come as a genuine surprise to him!
There are many different views, many different experiences and we all have our own way of expressing our grief.
Even though I felt physically sick at the idea of commercials on the original flag, I think Daniel has had a steep learning curve in response to his initiative.
Maybe I am wrong but I now genuinely believe his original intention was a good one and he did not envisage the response or grief he caused to some.
Now if Daniel can put that behind him and use his initiative to both honourably respect the May 11 tragedy and encourage younger City fans to carry on the good work of raising money for the Burns Unit, which is a nobel cause, then he has my support.
But certainly all views need to be aired amicably right now in order to counter any future hurt and misunderstanding.
Pondlover
says...
3:46pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Waynus1971 wrote:Blew it in your first sentence, back on FB you go............
Pondlover wrote:Pondlover or Pondlife? Who the h3ll made you judge and jury and your castigation of Daniel is bang out of order.
Instead of blundering on Daniel, why don't you take time out to consider the other opinions and, consider why Simon Parker has stuck his neck out and written this article in the T&A? There is is a loud & clear message and it's not difficult to find.
Parker did indeed write this thought provoking article and it has got some good debate. However the majority are in favour of the flag at Wembley, but not the chanting. Daniel had no part in the chanting, either in the earlier cup ties, at Wembley or against Daggenham...!
Can someone tell me the difference between players showing their respect with the tops(and Nike's profiteering) and the fans showing their respect by passing the flag around the stadium???? Perhaps a question for Parker himself!!
Dazzler
says...
3:57pm Sat 2 Mar 13
mickcbcfc
says...
5:30pm Sat 2 Mar 13
so is this person telling us to stop? no more services?
ctid! and the 56 always in our hearts.
bradford.ot
says...
5:48pm Sat 2 Mar 13
mickcbcfc
says...
6:05pm Sat 2 Mar 13
we the fans of bradford city are not happy. for those of us that were there it means alot.
retract it and appologise.
Storck
says...
6:25pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Not doing your self any favours Daniel, just making yourself look like a child who can not listen to anything they do not agree with.
radiobantam1
says...
6:28pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Pondlover
says...
6:38pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Two simple questions.
1.How much did the flag cost, inc Wembley fees, total cost?
2. How much has the burns unit received?
Pondlover
says...
6:40pm Sat 2 Mar 13
mickcbcfc wrote:Just like me Mick. you don't speak for everybody, don't presume that you do.
what a hornets nest you have stirred up simon. rumour has it there maybe a campaign to have you banned from all city games for life.
we the fans of bradford city are not happy. for those of us that were there it means alot.
retract it and appologise.
glorious1911
says...
6:52pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Jules5757
says...
6:56pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Maybe I'm mistaken as I could be classed as a glory supporter as I followed the cup run from the Arsenal game and don't go to every home match! But who can? Wish I could!
I think your report could be slightly misguided, foolish even! To stir up a debate around the loss of life will always be controversial. So well done your little report may get the most comments the T&A has ever had.
I myself would have focused on how the final seemed to bring the city together, from all backgrounds. But then a positive event for Bradford to the T&A may not be classed as news!
Cityman23
says...
6:58pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Firstly, can I say I firmly believe NO CITY SUPPORTER INTENDS to cause offence or do anything that shows disrespect to those killed, injured or damaged by the events of 11 May 1985.
I do think however, that certain 'responses' made by the fans recently have been what I would call 'ill advised.'
The club decided to make a marking on the track suits which was acceptable.
The flag going around at Wembley was much less so, as it appeared it was 'our' response to the large Swansea shirt being passed around by their fans ie was NOT a special remembrance, just part of the 'corporate spectacle' along with the other flags, woman hanging with the league cup from a wire etc.
'Remembrance' must NEVER be reduced to 'background spectacle' and so I therfore think it was a mistake.
However, I accept that the person who has blogged above did not intentionally attempt to be disrespectful, so he is in no way 'guilty' of anything but perhaps being part of a 'mistaken' response.
The chants of 'Stand Up For The 56, were also ill-advised, an even more so than the flag.
To reduce our memory of what happened on 11/05/85 to terracing songs when people's primary attention is watching the match is also mistaken.
Some stood up, some delayed and stood up, some half-stood up, some stayed seated, but it all broke down when City had a shot on goal, that caused what was intended as a 'mark of respect' to collapse.
We always mark 11/05/85 by silence BEFORE a match starts and in Bradford and THAT is the way it should stay. Please no more chants about 'the 56'-no more ill-thought out ways of supposedly honouring the dead, which seem a bit 'shallow' really and ultimately inappropriate.
NorthernBull
says...
7:01pm Sat 2 Mar 13
If we dont remember then we dont learn .... Bradford and LIverpool can and do remember these disasters with great dignity ...so many loved ones lost who should have been totally safe inside these sports stadiums, unfortunately not built to be safe as they are today.
I was proud we were remembering the horrific loss ...
a silly and controvercial subject to put out in the t&a and one that should not have been open to comments.
But now Simon knows his points on this are a little too sensitive for these forums ... but stop the silly comments about him being banned etc... the t&a promotes Bradford Sport and does a good job as news papers continue to struggle and decline..
I remember my classmate whenever i go to City .... and i particularly thought of her as soon as i saw the 56 flag passed underneath me on the lower tiers ..
She went to work to her Saturday job .. to serve teas and coffees at the back of the main stand ... on what should have been a safe day of celebration ..
The lessons were too painful to even think about ...but nobody sits in wooden stands and risks their loved ones today..
My children know why they are much safer today in sports stadiums ... They know the story of our friends ..
we never want to see a Bradford or a Hillsboro again .. these national disasters should never be forgotten.
TheApprentice
says...
7:06pm Sat 2 Mar 13
It doesn't help that anybody who disagrees is blocked from commenting on the facebook page as it stifles debate and makes it look like 100% of people are fully behind the flag and the chanting when all other sources clearly show that it's not unanimous.
Trev again
says...
7:28pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Bradfordflag56 wrote:You say "deleting peoples negative comments what a load of hogwash". I Trev (remember the name) posted quite a few debatable comments about the issue and i was returned with a torrent of abuse from yourself and others on your page just for voicing my opinion, anybody that gave any disapproval were instantly removed, including myself, not very democratic isn't it. Nobody on your page was allowed an opinion, (sorry i meant an opinion that you didn't agree with), Just to add, here are a few of the comments the posters who disagreed with the flag recieved including the first three from yourself.
Pondlover wrote:Excuse me i sold nothing and did you see any adverts on the flag i think not, in regards to deleting peoples negative comments what a load of hogwash. I got this flag sorted with the blessing of family members who llst loved ones in 85, they were happy with it so am i. Ashamed of my self not in a million years pal. Next time you raise money for the burns unit drop me a line yeah.
Daniel, you have zero moral high ground.
You pressed ahead regardless when people raised sound objections.
You pressed ahead regardless and deleted all sound & sensible criticism.
You pressed ahead regardless when you knew that you wouldn't have got enough donations to cover the flag costs.
So, you went and sold the memory of 56 dead fans to a commercial enterprise to enable "your" flag, not "ours" to be made.
You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.
"I'm getting greif on my PM now off a couple of them ha ha"
Paul Firth- spokesman for every bradfordian. Ever.
If you havnt got anything nice to say, shut your ******* mouth.
If people wanna critisise then inbox me you twa*s not this page you disrespectful scum.
it'll be round you fckuing neck if I see you
There are quite a few more if you want me to post them. The thing is you cannot delete peoples opinions on here can you.
Cityman23
says...
7:31pm Sat 2 Mar 13
NorthernBull wrote:I don't think anybody is saying 'we shouldn't remembe,r' they are speaking about THE WAY(S) WE REMEMBER.
At Wembley the fans and the club quite rightly remembered those who perished so tragically all those years ago ....
If we dont remember then we dont learn .... Bradford and LIverpool can and do remember these disasters with great dignity ...so many loved ones lost who should have been totally safe inside these sports stadiums, unfortunately not built to be safe as they are today.
I was proud we were remembering the horrific loss ...
a silly and controvercial subject to put out in the t&a and one that should not have been open to comments.
But now Simon knows his points on this are a little too sensitive for these forums ... but stop the silly comments about him being banned etc... the t&a promotes Bradford Sport and does a good job as news papers continue to struggle and decline..
I remember my classmate whenever i go to City .... and i particularly thought of her as soon as i saw the 56 flag passed underneath me on the lower tiers ..
She went to work to her Saturday job .. to serve teas and coffees at the back of the main stand ... on what should have been a safe day of celebration ..
The lessons were too painful to even think about ...but nobody sits in wooden stands and risks their loved ones today..
My children know why they are much safer today in sports stadiums ... They know the story of our friends ..
we never want to see a Bradford or a Hillsboro again .. these national disasters should never be forgotten.
Everybody treats injury/death in their own ways but surely using corporate 'methods' and 'during-match-chanti
ng' ARE NOT the WAYS TO REMEMBER.
I would add that we should not just be remembering the 56 people who died on that day in 1985. There were over 200 physically as well as many hundreds more mentally scarred after that horrible event.
Today, it is too easy to create a photo opportunity for TV or the press photo and we see this manipulated all the time these days.
Sometimes a spontaneous response CAN be moving, but attempts to follow what Liverpool supporters have done over Hillsborough with 'the fire' are (I believe-others may disagree ) not appropriate and tend to lead to the sort of article written at the top of this page. (And I am NOT criticising Liverpol fans)
As for football disasters being forgotten-whether it be Valley Parade, Hillsborough, Hysel, Ibrox, Munich, Turin-the answer I think is 'never!'
bcfcincheshire
says...
8:07pm Sat 2 Mar 13
involved. Silence on the issue now would be the best tribute of all.
bcfc1903
says...
8:12pm Sat 2 Mar 13
rmick72
says...
8:57pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Bradfordflag56 wrote:I would first like to say that I for one supported the flag and put some money towards it as I wanted it to happen as im a Bradford City supporter and lost a friend on that fatal day. Yes iv given money to the burns unit as well (before you say anything).
Pondlover wrote:Excuse me i sold nothing and did you see any adverts on the flag i think not, in regards to deleting peoples negative comments what a load of hogwash. I got this flag sorted with the blessing of family members who llst loved ones in 85, they were happy with it so am i. Ashamed of my self not in a million years pal. Next time you raise money for the burns unit drop me a line yeah.
Daniel, you have zero moral high ground.
You pressed ahead regardless when people raised sound objections.
You pressed ahead regardless and deleted all sound & sensible criticism.
You pressed ahead regardless when you knew that you wouldn't have got enough donations to cover the flag costs.
So, you went and sold the memory of 56 dead fans to a commercial enterprise to enable "your" flag, not "ours" to be made.
You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.
I feel that what simon parker has wrote is very disrespectful, and so are some of the stuff you've put. Yeah you are in titled to your option just like everyone else. the 56 chants started before the flag was (probably) thought about. No im not one of the members that got it done but the lads that did should be given the praised for getting it done and trying to get more for the burns unit.
One of your arguments is that the money that was used for the flag should of gone to the burns unit it self. Fair point but how much money do charity's use to advertise there cause?
More money has been raised and carry on been raised for such a good cause.
THE FLAG HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHANTING.
O and seen as simon parker and a few others were at wembley, then you would of realised that we the Bradford City Supporters were clapping Duke off when he was walking off the pitch after his red card.
dannyzuco
says...
9:10pm Sat 2 Mar 13
nottrue92
says...
9:23pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Craig
says...
9:39pm Sat 2 Mar 13
*
I don't exist in the Facebook world (easy to see why when seeing the 'intellecual' level of comment transferred to this thread) but it is clear there are other issues at play and I think all involved ought to take a step back before they heap any more embarassment on themselves or the club.
nottrue92
says...
9:51pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Craig wrote:Sadly the comments on Facebook are far worse and ill thought through than any on here.
Totally agree nottrue, the level of immaturity shown by some of the later comments on this blog is in danger of turning a thought provoking piece, that has been sensibly and thoughtfully debated, into a p*****g contest, which is far more offensive to the memory of the 56 than chanting, flags or anything else.
*
I don't exist in the Facebook world (easy to see why when seeing the 'intellecual' level of comment transferred to this thread) but it is clear there are other issues at play and I think all involved ought to take a step back before they heap any more embarassment on themselves or the club.
Waynus1971
says...
10:16pm Sat 2 Mar 13
nottrue92 wrote:So instead of coming on here to declare how disgraceful you feel Daniel has been, perhaps you could actually add value by giving your own opinion.
So it seems that once again Daniel is behaving like a hard done to child because someone has a different opinion to him. I initially supported this idea until I realised that he had become completely out of his depth and started sulking when people didn't give as much money as he was expecting. It was down to others intervention that this flag had no sponsors on it, not his. I have seen him be rude to people, to swear, to block if they didn't agree. He has declared himself as the person who decides who's opinion counts(this is apparently only people who lost people, not those physically or psychologically injured and certainly not anyone who disagrees with him). Now, when someone does ask the question many of us have been asking between ourselves but without the platform Daniel has he has taken offence. Asked people to come on here and back him up. Daniel you do not have the maturity to deal with an issue like this, until you are able to at least listen to and accept people have a different opinion to you. Please show our club and it's history the respect you claim to have. Leave us with some dignity.
Parker wrote a story saying that the trackie tops were acceptable, but the flag wasn't. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me the difference between the black marking on the shirts, the trackie tops and the flag. What makes one more tasteful than the other?
Pondlife has turned this into an attack on Daniel. If Daniel has behaved despicably on Facebook, take it up with him on there. This article and subsequent debate is about whether we should have had the flag, not what kind of person Daniel is.
Get back to what this post was created for and post your opinion on that, instead of attacking a fellow fan...!
nottrue92
says...
10:31pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Waynus1971 wrote:I have expressed my concerns and opinions on his page on Facebook well before Sunday and since then, they go ignored by him or he just complains about people 'having a go' at him. I have always tried to be impartial and praise him for his efforts and intentions however as I said, the more I see the more I despair of his attitude. I have never made it personal until now and the reason I have done so is because other people have attacked the writer of this article when he is only actually only expressing similar views to a lot of others that have been blocked or deleted from the Facebook account. I decided to express my views on here because he has no control over this site. The actual event of the flag going round I found touching and emotional. What I haven't liked is his attitude, his dismissal of others feelings and opinions etc as I've said. I think I've said this before but I believe the flag would have been covered in sponsors if others hadn't intervened. He now appears to be planning other events and talking about where he wants the flags etc.
nottrue92 wrote:So instead of coming on here to declare how disgraceful you feel Daniel has been, perhaps you could actually add value by giving your own opinion.
So it seems that once again Daniel is behaving like a hard done to child because someone has a different opinion to him. I initially supported this idea until I realised that he had become completely out of his depth and started sulking when people didn't give as much money as he was expecting. It was down to others intervention that this flag had no sponsors on it, not his. I have seen him be rude to people, to swear, to block if they didn't agree. He has declared himself as the person who decides who's opinion counts(this is apparently only people who lost people, not those physically or psychologically injured and certainly not anyone who disagrees with him). Now, when someone does ask the question many of us have been asking between ourselves but without the platform Daniel has he has taken offence. Asked people to come on here and back him up. Daniel you do not have the maturity to deal with an issue like this, until you are able to at least listen to and accept people have a different opinion to you. Please show our club and it's history the respect you claim to have. Leave us with some dignity.
Parker wrote a story saying that the trackie tops were acceptable, but the flag wasn't. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me the difference between the black marking on the shirts, the trackie tops and the flag. What makes one more tasteful than the other?
Pondlife has turned this into an attack on Daniel. If Daniel has behaved despicably on Facebook, take it up with him on there. This article and subsequent debate is about whether we should have had the flag, not what kind of person Daniel is.
Get back to what this post was created for and post your opinion on that, instead of attacking a fellow fan...!
fledge3
says...
11:24pm Sat 2 Mar 13
trembleywembley
says...
11:38pm Sat 2 Mar 13
Also cannot see him questioning the clubs decision to allow there remembrance next to a Nike swoosh, he obviously has to stay cozy with the board.
Therefore i see double standard with him expressing a negative veiwpoint with regards to any other form of remembrance. If he going to report on terrace matters should he not have contacted the parties involved, if he had done he would have found that relatives of the 56 dead were behind the flag.
Poor unnecessary article in my opinion
Watchinng
says...
1:33am Sun 3 Mar 13
The fact that this discussion and article are happening speaks volumes
Was it luck, rules or intervention that had the advertisement removed from your flag?
Pondlover
says...
8:53am Sun 3 Mar 13
.
1. Total cost of flag, production & Wembley costs?
2. Money donated to Burns unit so far?
bingleybantam
says...
8:54am Sun 3 Mar 13
Pondlover
says...
8:58am Sun 3 Mar 13
Also, as somebody else pointed out, on here, you get a much truer and fairer reflection of ALL Bradford's fans feelings becuase Daniel can't control the posts. It's come as an awful shock to some hasn't it?
TheApprentice
says...
9:07am Sun 3 Mar 13
bingleybantam wrote:I'd also like to know how much of the 6k was actually donated by fans rather than given by businesses/the club/wembley. That should give an indication regarding the level of actual support. I have a feeling it was something Daniel and his friends was going to do at all costs whether people supported him or not. The flag has been the catalyst for the chants so I struggle to understand how they can keep separating them selves from it.
Question that needs answering is how much of the reported £6000 actually went to the Burns Unit?
Somebody has asked about the difference between the flags/chants and the 56 on the training top. To me it's about the training tops were subtle enough to fit in with our usual quiet and dignified remembrance but crass chants and a 450 square metre flag are too 'in your face' for my liking.
Cityman23
says...
9:30am Sun 3 Mar 13
bcfcincheshire wrote:A dignified and apt post. 'Silence' on the issue until the group 'silences' to be observed on 11-05-13.
The quickest and simplest way to genuinely and respectfully pay respect to what happened in 1985 is to immediately cease all further discussion on any of the issues/matters raised above. No one involved in any one of the various acts of remembrance, including the flag, intentionally meant to do anything but show respect and warmth.....but that does not mean that it should continue at any future matches from now on. No more clapping, chants or discussions please. Wembley is now in the past, as indeed is 1985. The only people who will truly feel the pain and really remember are those that were there on the day itself and the families and friends of those directly
involved. Silence on the issue now would be the best tribute of all.
Trev again
says...
11:01am Sun 3 Mar 13
Remember we are a quiet and dignified club, we do not want to promote our tragedy, not now, not ever.
There is nothing wrong with trying to raise funds for the Burns unit but why not do it 100% instead of taking thousands of pounds out of the funds to satisfy your own needs first.
Just a few of your own quotes.
"Getting excited i need to go to bed soon, cant wait to see my baby flying high"
"but seem as i dont know anyone there how the hell do i announce myself to you all"
"The moment my dream became reality" (this refers to the flag being passed around Wembley)
All this seems a bit self egoistic to me.
Have you also thought about the fact that Simon Parker would probably have run this past the club before printing this, and like he says it was his opinion or is he not allowed one either because he disagrees with it.
TheApprentice
says...
11:06am Sun 3 Mar 13
chubbycheeks
says...
11:50am Sun 3 Mar 13
The point here is that Daniel had the best intentions, and he may have made mistakes (he's only human) but he's actually raising money for the Burns Unit and actually did something for the fans. How many of those complaining or challenging him can say the same?
The only reason he needed to get sponsors is because not enough fans were donating, that wasn't his fault. Now I don't know about the fb comments, but I've seen plenty disagreeing with his work.
This article is weak and too touchy a subject to have a "maybe, sort of" opinion with no back up on, and for those calling Daniel one-sided, I don't see a counter-opinion on this article. He doesn't acknowledge the other side.
My main point is, you're all part of the same club which currently needs your full support, act like it and give them it.
Fugazi
says...
12:29pm Sun 3 Mar 13
There are lots of people at City who are hurt by this sudden charade of self interest and it must stop.
Please let get back to dignified rememberance & understand that the disaster still deeply hurts a lot of people who were directly or indirectly involved.
Pondlover
says...
12:52pm Sun 3 Mar 13
But his ego ran out of control and he DID sell the memory of our dead fans for sponsorship! He can't erase history, it's on the net for all to see.
For the 3rd time!!!
1. What was the flag cost? Total cost inc manufacturing & Wembley costs?
2. What money has the Burns Unit received so far?
BCFC09
says...
12:53pm Sun 3 Mar 13
bingleybantam
says...
1:11pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Bradford Ranger
says...
1:42pm Sun 3 Mar 13
The flag cost £3000 to make. Wembley costs were covered by the club and FA.
The funds have been received by two accounts, one of which I don't have immediate access to and can't get a balance but estimate the total raised to be around £3600 or there abouts.
I personally removed people posting on the page who were just being negative and winding people up and insulting folk. Similarly to this thread, people were posting their personal opinions as fact and speaking for all Bradford city fans, when clearly there are different opinions. As a page trying to gather interest and funding, why would we have people on who were preventing/decreasin
g that??
Long and short of it is that people have different ways of remembering and showing respect etc. As someone pointed out above, no disrespect was ever meant. It seems many folk enjoyed the flag at Wembley, and some didn't.
Daniel and I are not businessmen, and the aim initially was to get the flag made cheap, and generate a huge donation to burns unit. Perhaps poor knowledge and optimism misguided us, but the flag cost more than expected and donations were not into the £10,000s as we hoped. Leading to a small donation and an expensive flag.
The flag page never backed the clapping and chanting. We wanted to get the flag to Wembley, and it happened. For the post about 'stop at nothing' and 'it would be there at all costs' I thought drive and ambition were good things? I'm glad I helped make this happen, I was very proud to see it at Wembley, I'm glad many people liked it too. I wasn't born that day, but lost a family member. I wasn't in the war but take great pride in remembering those too. I respect those who chose to remember in a quiet manner once a year, but for me, personally, I thought Wembley was a great time to show that the events and loss of 1985 are always remembered.
Bradford Ranger
says...
1:47pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Anyhow- good result at York? Onwards and upwards! Ta ra
Thee Voice of Reason
says...
1:50pm Sun 3 Mar 13
There are no dislikes on facebook therefore how can you possibly get anything other than positive feedback, and it was embarassing to see people will concerns shouted down because their view wasn't that of the pages creator.
The flag was great but lets put this aside until our last game of the season where we hold our dignified rememberence.
Fastnecker
says...
1:53pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Hundreds quietly gather each year outside City Hall. They don't need to tell people they are going, they just go to pay their respects.
I've gone every year & I don't even support Bradford City. Perhaps I should get a flag to show how much I care or maybe write a blog? Because its all about me isn't it? Its all about shouting how much you care isn't it? Because you have to tell people that you care more than them don't you?
Otherwise whats the point? Whats the point in quietly remembering the deaths and injuries if you can't shout about it and say "hey look at me, I care more than you!"
Bradford Ranger
says...
2:05pm Sun 3 Mar 13
I'm not comparing how much I care to anyone. I've not once said those who hold a quiet remembrance care any less. I've said repeatedly that people have different opinions. This is mine.
And again, the Facebook 'likes' don't mean much, but the thousands of comments do. Go read em. You might see that some people were behind it.
Were all aware that some weren't. I didn't force people to back it, I did however, remove negative comments yes.
The group was for people who liked the idea to get behind it and see what was going on, not for people to go on and insult everyone's opinions and values.
Wanna Have
says...
2:16pm Sun 3 Mar 13
It's a form of attention seeking and you don't need flags or chants to remember that day, it's a day best forgotten.
Wanna Have
says...
2:21pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Bradford Ranger wrote:I'm sorry my friend and fellow bradfordian, I know your heart is in the right place, but what was the point of this flag.
Hi folks, I am another of the moderators on the FB site. 1st things first- Pondlover.
The flag cost £3000 to make. Wembley costs were covered by the club and FA.
The funds have been received by two accounts, one of which I don't have immediate access to and can't get a balance but estimate the total raised to be around £3600 or there abouts.
I personally removed people posting on the page who were just being negative and winding people up and insulting folk. Similarly to this thread, people were posting their personal opinions as fact and speaking for all Bradford city fans, when clearly there are different opinions. As a page trying to gather interest and funding, why would we have people on who were preventing/decreasin
g that??
Long and short of it is that people have different ways of remembering and showing respect etc. As someone pointed out above, no disrespect was ever meant. It seems many folk enjoyed the flag at Wembley, and some didn't.
Daniel and I are not businessmen, and the aim initially was to get the flag made cheap, and generate a huge donation to burns unit. Perhaps poor knowledge and optimism misguided us, but the flag cost more than expected and donations were not into the £10,000s as we hoped. Leading to a small donation and an expensive flag.
The flag page never backed the clapping and chanting. We wanted to get the flag to Wembley, and it happened. For the post about 'stop at nothing' and 'it would be there at all costs' I thought drive and ambition were good things? I'm glad I helped make this happen, I was very proud to see it at Wembley, I'm glad many people liked it too. I wasn't born that day, but lost a family member. I wasn't in the war but take great pride in remembering those too. I respect those who chose to remember in a quiet manner once a year, but for me, personally, I thought Wembley was a great time to show that the events and loss of 1985 are always remembered.
Why not donate the money to some local kids football teams or Bradford burns.
I'm not sure I understand the "remembering" bit, if you have lost a family member or a friend or were at the fire, you will never forget.
Trev again
says...
2:51pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Bradford Ranger wrote:You removed my comments. I did not as you know insult, swear or wind up one person on your page, i was only trying to put my honest opinion across and yet i recieved a torrent of abuse from yourself and others on the page, why were those posters not removed, or do you think that anyone who supported the flag is ok to do the abusing and insult other peoples values and opinions, i for one would like an apology for the way i was treated by yourself and the others that abused and insulted me.
You wear a poppy? I do. With pride. Every November. Maybe that makes me 'all about me', maybe it raises awareness, maybe it encourages other people to do the same.
I'm not comparing how much I care to anyone. I've not once said those who hold a quiet remembrance care any less. I've said repeatedly that people have different opinions. This is mine.
And again, the Facebook 'likes' don't mean much, but the thousands of comments do. Go read em. You might see that some people were behind it.
Were all aware that some weren't. I didn't force people to back it, I did however, remove negative comments yes.
The group was for people who liked the idea to get behind it and see what was going on, not for people to go on and insult everyone's opinions and values.
PaulHodgson
says...
2:54pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Bradford Ranger
says...
3:04pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Bradford Ranger
says...
3:07pm Sun 3 Mar 13
PaulHodgson wrote:Thank you Paul. I couldn't agree more. Language at games is appalling. I even heard people saying the L£:&ds word. But seriously, not needed is it.
I was at the fire and at Wembley - why can't we just accept that people have the right to express what they feel in the way they want? Why does everything come down to black and white ? Where has tolerance gone ? ( Or was he playing for Swansea ?). There is no right./wrong here - IMO the flag and tracksuits were fine - if people want to chant on 56 mins - why not ? What fans should get exited about is the chanting of swear words such as "Its only a cup who gives a f***. Now that is completely unacceptable and I find it makes me reflect why I am bringing my 7 year old son to such places.
TheApprentice
says...
3:11pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Bradford Ranger
says...
3:19pm Sun 3 Mar 13
TheApprentice
says...
3:36pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Trev again
says...
4:06pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Bradford Ranger wrote:I went on there to give my honest opinion, which i did, and if you say that my opinion is a wind up, well that's up to you, i didn't call anyone disrespectful, i said i thought what you were doing was disrespectful and i still stand by what i say, i posted quite a few debatable comments about the issue but i was returned with a torrent of abuse, including the admin, not once did i swear, insult or wind anyone up, all i did was try to put my point across, but if you want to remain blinkered and call peoples posts who disagree with the flag rubbish then that's your opinion, we all have one you know.
Trev- you went on the page and just repeatedly put lots of rubbish on there. I don't recall what was put, but you gained a lot of enemies by just rubbishing everyone's posts, calling people disrespectful and speaking on behalf of all bradfordians and city fans as you have done earlier on this T&A thread. I'm not going to apologise to you. You wouldn't go into a church full of people and start slating their beliefs. You voluntarily went onto the page which was clearly titled with what it was doing and you posted rubbish with no purpose. You didn't debate, you didn't post ideas, you went on to wind folk up, and put yourself in the firing line for what responses you got. Which I must say, didn't come from the page admins, it was from other people.
bcfc1903
says...
5:56pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Bradfordflag56 wrote:I'm not on Facebook but as i've said above, i thought the flag was very tasteful and a very dignified way to commmorate the 56 souls who perished in the fire. I'm very much with you Daniel regarding the chanting, i'd be uncomfortable with it if it became a regular occurance. I obviously can't speak for everyone but for me the flag was an excellent idea which added to my whole Wembley experience....and i hope to see it permanently in place at Valley Parade.
Well i thought i would sign up and put my point across. I am Daniel the creator of the group that made the flag. I came up with the idea after the second leg of the Aston villa game. My intention was to remember the 56 on one of the biggest days in the clubs history. Most of them would have been there had the tragic events not have unfolded. This was my way of making sure they were with us. I wanted it to bring people together not divide people. In regards to the chanting on 56 min at the daggers game i fully agree, i dont like it and it made me feel uncomfortable. However how you can link my flag at wembley and spontaneous chanting at every game? i do not know. I have many friends and family members on my page that lost people in the fire and they are fully behind the flag, i would also appreciate if the t and a contact me so they can do a article to put our side across im sick of all the abuse im getting for something i did to bring us all closer and to remember our brothers and sisters that could not be there on Sunday. Also the club and family members of those who died are fully behind the flag. I.E. the people that matter.
macca1969
says...
6:08pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Let's stick together as a club and not disrespect each other on such a sensitive subject, as this slights the memory of the 56 more than any flag or chant.
rmick72
says...
6:53pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Fugazi wrote:The chanting is totally separate to the flag, and the chanting started before the flag was mentioned.
The problem with the flag (adverts or no adverts) and the clapping & chanting is that they totally diregard the opinions of those who may find the whole thing upsetting. Could people like me who have never wanted to talk, or read about the disaster get away from the flag? NO. Could people like me get away from the chanting? NO.
There are lots of people at City who are hurt by this sudden charade of self interest and it must stop.
Please let get back to dignified rememberance & understand that the disaster still deeply hurts a lot of people who were directly or indirectly involved.
I to am not keen on the chanting and clapping either. People can't get away from the chanting and clapping but anyone who didn't want to see the flag could of stayed in the back until it was over and done with. Please don't take this the wrong way as im not having ago as I agree with most of your options
rmick72
says...
7:31pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Wanna Have wrote:We've all lost someone in the army but every year I wear a poppy with pride, I (Me) put big poppies on all the trucks at work. They stay on for about a month. Do you wear a poppy, if so is it just on remembrance day or longer?
Bradford Ranger wrote:I'm sorry my friend and fellow bradfordian, I know your heart is in the right place, but what was the point of this flag.
Hi folks, I am another of the moderators on the FB site. 1st things first- Pondlover.
The flag cost £3000 to make. Wembley costs were covered by the club and FA.
The funds have been received by two accounts, one of which I don't have immediate access to and can't get a balance but estimate the total raised to be around £3600 or there abouts.
I personally removed people posting on the page who were just being negative and winding people up and insulting folk. Similarly to this thread, people were posting their personal opinions as fact and speaking for all Bradford city fans, when clearly there are different opinions. As a page trying to gather interest and funding, why would we have people on who were preventing/decreasin
g that??
Long and short of it is that people have different ways of remembering and showing respect etc. As someone pointed out above, no disrespect was ever meant. It seems many folk enjoyed the flag at Wembley, and some didn't.
Daniel and I are not businessmen, and the aim initially was to get the flag made cheap, and generate a huge donation to burns unit. Perhaps poor knowledge and optimism misguided us, but the flag cost more than expected and donations were not into the £10,000s as we hoped. Leading to a small donation and an expensive flag.
The flag page never backed the clapping and chanting. We wanted to get the flag to Wembley, and it happened. For the post about 'stop at nothing' and 'it would be there at all costs' I thought drive and ambition were good things? I'm glad I helped make this happen, I was very proud to see it at Wembley, I'm glad many people liked it too. I wasn't born that day, but lost a family member. I wasn't in the war but take great pride in remembering those too. I respect those who chose to remember in a quiet manner once a year, but for me, personally, I thought Wembley was a great time to show that the events and loss of 1985 are always remembered.
Why not donate the money to some local kids football teams or Bradford burns.
I'm not sure I understand the "remembering" bit, if you have lost a family member or a friend or were at the fire, you will never forget.
I give money to the Help The Hereos, British Legion and the Bradford Burns Unit. I also gave money towards the flag, and im glad it was there.
The reason I wanted it there was to send a message up to my friend to say your not forgotten.
Yes I go every year to lay flowers outside town hall and then lay some at the ground after the service
rmick72
says...
8:10pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Trev again wrote:Trev, I think I recall in seeing that post and at the time I asked why you felt it was disrespectful.
Bradford Ranger wrote:I went on there to give my honest opinion, which i did, and if you say that my opinion is a wind up, well that's up to you, i didn't call anyone disrespectful, i said i thought what you were doing was disrespectful and i still stand by what i say, i posted quite a few debatable comments about the issue but i was returned with a torrent of abuse, including the admin, not once did i swear, insult or wind anyone up, all i did was try to put my point across, but if you want to remain blinkered and call peoples posts who disagree with the flag rubbish then that's your opinion, we all have one you know.
Trev- you went on the page and just repeatedly put lots of rubbish on there. I don't recall what was put, but you gained a lot of enemies by just rubbishing everyone's posts, calling people disrespectful and speaking on behalf of all bradfordians and city fans as you have done earlier on this T&A thread. I'm not going to apologise to you. You wouldn't go into a church full of people and start slating their beliefs. You voluntarily went onto the page which was clearly titled with what it was doing and you posted rubbish with no purpose. You didn't debate, you didn't post ideas, you went on to wind folk up, and put yourself in the firing line for what responses you got. Which I must say, didn't come from the page admins, it was from other people.
I don't recall seeing a reply but if you did then im sorry I didn't see one.
So why do you think it was disrespectful?
timetobeproud
says...
8:39pm Sun 3 Mar 13
rmick72
says...
8:43pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Pondlover wrote:Please explain to me what simon parker is trying to say, because only you can.
Instead of blundering on Daniel, why don't you take time out to consider the other opinions and, consider why Simon Parker has stuck his neck out and written this article in the T&A? There is is a loud & clear message and it's not difficult to find.
These are the facts.......
He wasn't there (1985).... lucky for him
He doesn't know if he should have an opinion on this!!!!! If he has to ask then the answer is no
He doesn't know of anyone that was there or know anyone that suffered.....Yet he still wrote an article that he doesn't no anything about
He states that he knows the Bradford community!!!!!!! If he did then why o why has he put a onesided view across and got a fair few of his facts wrong.
You keep contradicting yourself. Your having a go at Dan for been one sided but that is what simon parker has done. He has got 3 storys and made it into one story
It's was ok for the players to show there respect but not the supporters! !!!!!!!!!!
rmick72
says...
8:46pm Sun 3 Mar 13
timetobeproud wrote:Think ALL PARTY'S should read the above as timetobeproud is spot on.....well said
Couldn't really disagree more. It was a massive personal message for all involved with the club on one of the biggest footballing stages. The last 25 minutes of chanting and flag waving was for the players, fans, club and the 56.
Watchinng
says...
10:40pm Sun 3 Mar 13
Mr Perks
says...
2:48am Mon 4 Mar 13
Jules5757 wrote:Jules5757 said:'I followed the cup run from the Arsenal game and don't go to every home match! But who can?'
I was at the Dagenam game and don't recall a chant for the 56. There were a couple of chants of "of stand up if you love city".
Maybe I'm mistaken as I could be classed as a glory supporter as I followed the cup run from the Arsenal game and don't go to every home match! But who can? Wish I could!
I think your report could be slightly misguided, foolish even! To stir up a debate around the loss of life will always be controversial. So well done your little report may get the most comments the T&A has ever had.
I myself would have focused on how the final seemed to bring the city together, from all backgrounds. But then a positive event for Bradford to the T&A may not be classed as news!
Don't make me laugh! 10,000 of us go to every home game and have done for many years. If you can support the team on glamorous occasions like the cup games but don't intend to go when the going isn't so good. Then I'm afraid you are the 'dictionary definition' of a GLORY HUNTER!
Pondlover
says...
8:33am Mon 4 Mar 13
I am still not clear on the figures but seems that 5 or 6 thousand pounds have been spent, splitting our fans (as this thread, not FB, proves) for a few hundred quid to be raised? You have allowed commercial enterprises profit more than the burns unit. That is crackers! If you'd simply walked the last 56 miles to Wembley then I reckon you'd have raised thousands of pounds and generated a lot of good will and no ill will................
I feel that if the effort and enthusiams that you & Daniel showed, had been combined with some maturity, some business sense and, most of all, not been ego-driven, then you could have made really good job of fund raising. As it is you are still dividing our fans and all for a few hundred quid? You will never get full support whilst you use this flag, because it all went belly up the moment you (or Daniel) sold the memory of the dead fans for cash, that was the critical point where people turned against it. Daniel still doesn't get it, he seems to want to airbrush history, well that man needs to offer a public apology and his “history”, his disrespect to the dead, is all over the net. That flag, with large advertising on it, will never be forgotten, it was unforgiveable!
As for FB, you couldn't generate enough funds via that medium, ok, not your fault. But you let Daniel make the comments he did (& is still doing), surround yourself with the quality of people that you did, and the outcome was no surprise really was it? I wonder how many “normal” folk went on that page with intentions of donating. Then fled a mile! I did. I've looked again this morning, it is hugely embarrassing.
It is now crystal clear to you that a substantial amount of fans don't want the flag in VP. I expect Daniel (he seems the mouthpiece) to blunder on regardless, trapped in his FB world of 100% positivity. Well, you'll never raise what you could (if you put your minds to it) because too many would not go near the people who sold the memory of our fans for cash, with a bargepole. The flag is a constant reminder of that fact and that is why you need a re-think.
Michael Clayton
says...
9:42am Mon 4 Mar 13
When I was at Wembley, there was one guy who was practically insisting that others stood up (on fifty-six minutes); causing grief to people who were already biting back tears.
He saw the lack of response as disrespect. What an absolute fool.
I am not advocating a ban on commemorative singing / banner waving. However, it is not the way of the football club and its more traditional supporters i.e. those more likely to have been affected in and since 1985. (Someone on here suggested that if we do not sing then the tragedy will not be remembered. What rubbush).
Most comments on here are sensible. However, the bickering (given the subject matter) is a disgrace.
Prisoner Cell Block A
says...
9:45am Mon 4 Mar 13
The flag and the 56 minute clapping was fine for Wembley, it brought the spirit of those 56 who undoubtedly would have been there if only they could, it was not demeaning nor cheapening their memory to pay that respect and let the world know we have never forgotten. Many fans I know who were against it thought that once the flag started to go round they got a lump in the throat and a tear in the eye.
Now back to reality, we should continue to pay our respects as we always have, be that new or old supporters, the minutes silence, always perfectly observed by ourselves and our last day visitors then the memorial which many of us attend every year.
This clapping and *pray for* rubbish of recent years is just faux-grief, making a mockery and an attempt to get noticed on the world stage, something we don't court and don't need now we are back to being 4th division Bradford City.
I have always felt a sense of pride that we can pay our respects in a quiet understated manner year in year out, never forgetting, never dishonouring, never replicating what others may or may not do. To change 'our way' would, in my opinion, be a bad move and one I could not support.
Let's return to base, as we were, Wembley is behind us, the final game of the season is yet to come.
Also, as no side in this debate is going to give yards I think you may be best making a tactical withdrawal and not demeaning the memories further, neither can win in this argument but you can cause dishonour and bring pointless misery and further bad memories 'just to prove a point'
Michael Clayton
says...
10:25am Mon 4 Mar 13
Prisoner Cell Block A wrote:Well said.
The view from one who was there on the day, and revisits every time I step into VP. The flag and the 56 minute clapping was fine for Wembley, it brought the spirit of those 56 who undoubtedly would have been there if only they could, it was not demeaning nor cheapening their memory to pay that respect and let the world know we have never forgotten. Many fans I know who were against it thought that once the flag started to go round they got a lump in the throat and a tear in the eye. Now back to reality, we should continue to pay our respects as we always have, be that new or old supporters, the minutes silence, always perfectly observed by ourselves and our last day visitors then the memorial which many of us attend every year. This clapping and *pray for* rubbish of recent years is just faux-grief, making a mockery and an attempt to get noticed on the world stage, something we don't court and don't need now we are back to being 4th division Bradford City. I have always felt a sense of pride that we can pay our respects in a quiet understated manner year in year out, never forgetting, never dishonouring, never replicating what others may or may not do. To change 'our way' would, in my opinion, be a bad move and one I could not support. Let's return to base, as we were, Wembley is behind us, the final game of the season is yet to come. Also, as no side in this debate is going to give yards I think you may be best making a tactical withdrawal and not demeaning the memories further, neither can win in this argument but you can cause dishonour and bring pointless misery and further bad memories 'just to prove a point'
The "always remember" idea is misconceived. There are people who have not been able to set-foot in Valley Parade for twenty-eight years. Hardly likely to forget, are they?
macca1969
says...
12:29pm Mon 4 Mar 13
Prisoner Cell Block A wrote:Great post said what I was trying but put down a lot better,making more sense. Totally agree that this bickering is far more disrespectful than any flag or chant
The view from one who was there on the day, and revisits every time I step into VP.
The flag and the 56 minute clapping was fine for Wembley, it brought the spirit of those 56 who undoubtedly would have been there if only they could, it was not demeaning nor cheapening their memory to pay that respect and let the world know we have never forgotten. Many fans I know who were against it thought that once the flag started to go round they got a lump in the throat and a tear in the eye.
Now back to reality, we should continue to pay our respects as we always have, be that new or old supporters, the minutes silence, always perfectly observed by ourselves and our last day visitors then the memorial which many of us attend every year.
This clapping and *pray for* rubbish of recent years is just faux-grief, making a mockery and an attempt to get noticed on the world stage, something we don't court and don't need now we are back to being 4th division Bradford City.
I have always felt a sense of pride that we can pay our respects in a quiet understated manner year in year out, never forgetting, never dishonouring, never replicating what others may or may not do. To change 'our way' would, in my opinion, be a bad move and one I could not support.
Let's return to base, as we were, Wembley is behind us, the final game of the season is yet to come.
Also, as no side in this debate is going to give yards I think you may be best making a tactical withdrawal and not demeaning the memories further, neither can win in this argument but you can cause dishonour and bring pointless misery and further bad memories 'just to prove a point'
Michael Clayton
says...
1:03pm Mon 4 Mar 13
macca1969 wrote:Misguided exuberance from people trying to identify with events from nearly a quarter of a century ago.
Prisoner Cell Block A wrote: The view from one who was there on the day, and revisits every time I step into VP. The flag and the 56 minute clapping was fine for Wembley, it brought the spirit of those 56 who undoubtedly would have been there if only they could, it was not demeaning nor cheapening their memory to pay that respect and let the world know we have never forgotten. Many fans I know who were against it thought that once the flag started to go round they got a lump in the throat and a tear in the eye. Now back to reality, we should continue to pay our respects as we always have, be that new or old supporters, the minutes silence, always perfectly observed by ourselves and our last day visitors then the memorial which many of us attend every year. This clapping and *pray for* rubbish of recent years is just faux-grief, making a mockery and an attempt to get noticed on the world stage, something we don't court and don't need now we are back to being 4th division Bradford City. I have always felt a sense of pride that we can pay our respects in a quiet understated manner year in year out, never forgetting, never dishonouring, never replicating what others may or may not do. To change 'our way' would, in my opinion, be a bad move and one I could not support. Let's return to base, as we were, Wembley is behind us, the final game of the season is yet to come. Also, as no side in this debate is going to give yards I think you may be best making a tactical withdrawal and not demeaning the memories further, neither can win in this argument but you can cause dishonour and bring pointless misery and further bad memories 'just to prove a point'Great post said what I was trying but put down a lot better,making more sense. Totally agree that this bickering is far more disrespectful than any flag or chant
Unfortunately, without the life experience / education, there is a receipe for discord.
The message is lost somewhere.
If you want evidence of this, consider the actions of those who think it is acceptable to enter the field of play (usually following the last game of the season).
Most of us realise what would have happened on 11-5-1985 (had fences been in place) and as proven by 'Hillsborough'.
As fans, we are on trust. For me, stepping foot on the turf is the ultimate show of disrespect for those who were unable to do so when their lives depended on it.
bettyswollocks
says...
1:19pm Mon 4 Mar 13
fansince1956 wrote:I couldn't agree more, this sums my feelings up perfectly.
I was there on 11th May 1985 and, although physically unhurt, the mental hurt remains and always will. At times I still find it too emotionally difficult to talk about even after 28 years and even as I am writing this I can feel the emotion welling up. The Club and the people of Bradford have always remembered the tragedy in a respecful and digified manner - thank you Simon Parker for an excellent article and one with which I totally agree.
I must admit I felt a bit uneasy about he idea of the flag, we've always remembered that day in our own, quiet, dignified way. All in all I understand why some people may have wanted the gesture but it should be left there.
I don't agree with the statement above that the only people that matter are those that lost people That is a very arrogant comment in is disrespectful firstly to the people that were lost, they were part of a much bigger family, and also to those that were there.
Michael Clayton
says...
1:48pm Mon 4 Mar 13
bettyswollocks wrote:Please point me to the statement from the person whose comment you disagreed with. Thanks
fansince1956 wrote: I was there on 11th May 1985 and, although physically unhurt, the mental hurt remains and always will. At times I still find it too emotionally difficult to talk about even after 28 years and even as I am writing this I can feel the emotion welling up. The Club and the people of Bradford have always remembered the tragedy in a respecful and digified manner - thank you Simon Parker for an excellent article and one with which I totally agree.I couldn't agree more, this sums my feelings up perfectly. I must admit I felt a bit uneasy about he idea of the flag, we've always remembered that day in our own, quiet, dignified way. All in all I understand why some people may have wanted the gesture but it should be left there. I don't agree with the statement above that the only people that matter are those that lost people That is a very arrogant comment in is disrespectful firstly to the people that were lost, they were part of a much bigger family, and also to those that were there.
hx3bantam
says...
2:31pm Mon 4 Mar 13
Prisoner Cell Block A wrote:This should be read, taken on board and the bickering should cease now! Great post.
The view from one who was there on the day, and revisits every time I step into VP. The flag and the 56 minute clapping was fine for Wembley, it brought the spirit of those 56 who undoubtedly would have been there if only they could, it was not demeaning nor cheapening their memory to pay that respect and let the world know we have never forgotten. Many fans I know who were against it thought that once the flag started to go round they got a lump in the throat and a tear in the eye. Now back to reality, we should continue to pay our respects as we always have, be that new or old supporters, the minutes silence, always perfectly observed by ourselves and our last day visitors then the memorial which many of us attend every year. This clapping and *pray for* rubbish of recent years is just faux-grief, making a mockery and an attempt to get noticed on the world stage, something we don't court and don't need now we are back to being 4th division Bradford City. I have always felt a sense of pride that we can pay our respects in a quiet understated manner year in year out, never forgetting, never dishonouring, never replicating what others may or may not do. To change 'our way' would, in my opinion, be a bad move and one I could not support. Let's return to base, as we were, Wembley is behind us, the final game of the season is yet to come. Also, as no side in this debate is going to give yards I think you may be best making a tactical withdrawal and not demeaning the memories further, neither can win in this argument but you can cause dishonour and bring pointless misery and further bad memories 'just to prove a point'
Prisoner Cell Block A
says...
2:51pm Mon 4 Mar 13
This is far too touchy a subject to continue these comments and will cause upset if the to and forth continues as above.
Wanna Have
says...
3:41pm Mon 4 Mar 13
rmick72 wrote:My concern is that there will have been people who may not want to remember the day/victims in this way, nearly 30 years after the events that day, and may want to keep their grief private and not have old wounds openend up.
Wanna Have wrote:We've all lost someone in the army but every year I wear a poppy with pride, I (Me) put big poppies on all the trucks at work. They stay on for about a month. Do you wear a poppy, if so is it just on remembrance day or longer? I give money to the Help The Hereos, British Legion and the Bradford Burns Unit. I also gave money towards the flag, and im glad it was there. The reason I wanted it there was to send a message up to my friend to say your not forgotten. Yes I go every year to lay flowers outside town hall and then lay some at the ground after the serviceBradford Ranger wrote: Hi folks, I am another of the moderators on the FB site. 1st things first- Pondlover. The flag cost £3000 to make. Wembley costs were covered by the club and FA. The funds have been received by two accounts, one of which I don't have immediate access to and can't get a balance but estimate the total raised to be around £3600 or there abouts. I personally removed people posting on the page who were just being negative and winding people up and insulting folk. Similarly to this thread, people were posting their personal opinions as fact and speaking for all Bradford city fans, when clearly there are different opinions. As a page trying to gather interest and funding, why would we have people on who were preventing/decreasin g that?? Long and short of it is that people have different ways of remembering and showing respect etc. As someone pointed out above, no disrespect was ever meant. It seems many folk enjoyed the flag at Wembley, and some didn't. Daniel and I are not businessmen, and the aim initially was to get the flag made cheap, and generate a huge donation to burns unit. Perhaps poor knowledge and optimism misguided us, but the flag cost more than expected and donations were not into the £10,000s as we hoped. Leading to a small donation and an expensive flag. The flag page never backed the clapping and chanting. We wanted to get the flag to Wembley, and it happened. For the post about 'stop at nothing' and 'it would be there at all costs' I thought drive and ambition were good things? I'm glad I helped make this happen, I was very proud to see it at Wembley, I'm glad many people liked it too. I wasn't born that day, but lost a family member. I wasn't in the war but take great pride in remembering those too. I respect those who chose to remember in a quiet manner once a year, but for me, personally, I thought Wembley was a great time to show that the events and loss of 1985 are always remembered.I'm sorry my friend and fellow bradfordian, I know your heart is in the right place, but what was the point of this flag. Why not donate the money to some local kids football teams or Bradford burns. I'm not sure I understand the "remembering" bit, if you have lost a family member or a friend or were at the fire, you will never forget.
bcfc1903
says...
4:41pm Mon 4 Mar 13
Pondlover
says...
5:22pm Mon 4 Mar 13
bcfc1903 wrote:Ah well, good job you have now met plenty of here (at VP 1985 & Wembley 2013) to enable you to understand another opinion.
Regarding the flag, i've yet to meet any BCFC fan who didn't like it at Wembley or not want it in Valley Parade with the other two commemorative flags.
bradfordian
says...
5:54pm Mon 4 Mar 13
rmick72
says...
7:55pm Mon 4 Mar 13
Wanna Have wrote:I understand what your saying and I can only put what I know. The families and friends I know and spoke to, were for it, but did view there concerns, like alot of other people regarding the company logos on. The people behind got it redesigned until the fb page liked it and then it got ordered.
rmick72 wrote:My concern is that there will have been people who may not want to remember the day/victims in this way, nearly 30 years after the events that day, and may want to keep their grief private and not have old wounds openend up.
Wanna Have wrote:We've all lost someone in the army but every year I wear a poppy with pride, I (Me) put big poppies on all the trucks at work. They stay on for about a month. Do you wear a poppy, if so is it just on remembrance day or longer? I give money to the Help The Hereos, British Legion and the Bradford Burns Unit. I also gave money towards the flag, and im glad it was there. The reason I wanted it there was to send a message up to my friend to say your not forgotten. Yes I go every year to lay flowers outside town hall and then lay some at the ground after the serviceBradford Ranger wrote: Hi folks, I am another of the moderators on the FB site. 1st things first- Pondlover. The flag cost £3000 to make. Wembley costs were covered by the club and FA. The funds have been received by two accounts, one of which I don't have immediate access to and can't get a balance but estimate the total raised to be around £3600 or there abouts. I personally removed people posting on the page who were just being negative and winding people up and insulting folk. Similarly to this thread, people were posting their personal opinions as fact and speaking for all Bradford city fans, when clearly there are different opinions. As a page trying to gather interest and funding, why would we have people on who were preventing/decreasin g that?? Long and short of it is that people have different ways of remembering and showing respect etc. As someone pointed out above, no disrespect was ever meant. It seems many folk enjoyed the flag at Wembley, and some didn't. Daniel and I are not businessmen, and the aim initially was to get the flag made cheap, and generate a huge donation to burns unit. Perhaps poor knowledge and optimism misguided us, but the flag cost more than expected and donations were not into the £10,000s as we hoped. Leading to a small donation and an expensive flag. The flag page never backed the clapping and chanting. We wanted to get the flag to Wembley, and it happened. For the post about 'stop at nothing' and 'it would be there at all costs' I thought drive and ambition were good things? I'm glad I helped make this happen, I was very proud to see it at Wembley, I'm glad many people liked it too. I wasn't born that day, but lost a family member. I wasn't in the war but take great pride in remembering those too. I respect those who chose to remember in a quiet manner once a year, but for me, personally, I thought Wembley was a great time to show that the events and loss of 1985 are always remembered.I'm sorry my friend and fellow bradfordian, I know your heart is in the right place, but what was the point of this flag. Why not donate the money to some local kids football teams or Bradford burns. I'm not sure I understand the "remembering" bit, if you have lost a family member or a friend or were at the fire, you will never forget.
No I have nothing to do with the page or the flag except the money I put towards it.
rmick72
says...
7:55pm Mon 4 Mar 13
Wanna Have wrote:I understand what your saying and I can only put what I know. The families and friends I know and spoke to, were for it, but did view there concerns, like alot of other people regarding the company logos on. The people behind got it redesigned until the fb page liked it and then it got ordered.
rmick72 wrote:My concern is that there will have been people who may not want to remember the day/victims in this way, nearly 30 years after the events that day, and may want to keep their grief private and not have old wounds openend up.
Wanna Have wrote:We've all lost someone in the army but every year I wear a poppy with pride, I (Me) put big poppies on all the trucks at work. They stay on for about a month. Do you wear a poppy, if so is it just on remembrance day or longer? I give money to the Help The Hereos, British Legion and the Bradford Burns Unit. I also gave money towards the flag, and im glad it was there. The reason I wanted it there was to send a message up to my friend to say your not forgotten. Yes I go every year to lay flowers outside town hall and then lay some at the ground after the serviceBradford Ranger wrote: Hi folks, I am another of the moderators on the FB site. 1st things first- Pondlover. The flag cost £3000 to make. Wembley costs were covered by the club and FA. The funds have been received by two accounts, one of which I don't have immediate access to and can't get a balance but estimate the total raised to be around £3600 or there abouts. I personally removed people posting on the page who were just being negative and winding people up and insulting folk. Similarly to this thread, people were posting their personal opinions as fact and speaking for all Bradford city fans, when clearly there are different opinions. As a page trying to gather interest and funding, why would we have people on who were preventing/decreasin g that?? Long and short of it is that people have different ways of remembering and showing respect etc. As someone pointed out above, no disrespect was ever meant. It seems many folk enjoyed the flag at Wembley, and some didn't. Daniel and I are not businessmen, and the aim initially was to get the flag made cheap, and generate a huge donation to burns unit. Perhaps poor knowledge and optimism misguided us, but the flag cost more than expected and donations were not into the £10,000s as we hoped. Leading to a small donation and an expensive flag. The flag page never backed the clapping and chanting. We wanted to get the flag to Wembley, and it happened. For the post about 'stop at nothing' and 'it would be there at all costs' I thought drive and ambition were good things? I'm glad I helped make this happen, I was very proud to see it at Wembley, I'm glad many people liked it too. I wasn't born that day, but lost a family member. I wasn't in the war but take great pride in remembering those too. I respect those who chose to remember in a quiet manner once a year, but for me, personally, I thought Wembley was a great time to show that the events and loss of 1985 are always remembered.I'm sorry my friend and fellow bradfordian, I know your heart is in the right place, but what was the point of this flag. Why not donate the money to some local kids football teams or Bradford burns. I'm not sure I understand the "remembering" bit, if you have lost a family member or a friend or were at the fire, you will never forget.
No I have nothing to do with the page or the flag except the money I put towards it.
bcfc1903
says...
8:27pm Mon 4 Mar 13
Pondlover wrote:Yes...but i haven't met plenty on here have i, i believe BCFC have around 10,000 season ticket holders and flexi card holders, this FEW on this site do not represent anything other than themselves and their own opinions.....and yes i do understand other opinions...do you understand mine?
bcfc1903 wrote:Ah well, good job you have now met plenty of here (at VP 1985 & Wembley 2013) to enable you to understand another opinion.
Regarding the flag, i've yet to meet any BCFC fan who didn't like it at Wembley or not want it in Valley Parade with the other two commemorative flags.
Pondlover
says...
9:08pm Mon 4 Mar 13
bcfc1903 wrote:Not really, it was probably the most pointless post in the entire thread!
Pondlover wrote:Yes...but i haven't met plenty on here have i, i believe BCFC have around 10,000 season ticket holders and flexi card holders, this FEW on this site do not represent anything other than themselves and their own opinions.....and yes i do understand other opinions...do you understand mine?
bcfc1903 wrote:Ah well, good job you have now met plenty of here (at VP 1985 & Wembley 2013) to enable you to understand another opinion.
Regarding the flag, i've yet to meet any BCFC fan who didn't like it at Wembley or not want it in Valley Parade with the other two commemorative flags.
It's a long thread, probably 50/50 split in opinion, it shows you, quite clearly, a split in opinion.
Prisoner Cell Block A
says...
10:38am Tue 5 Mar 13
My thoughts were that the flag and the 56 minute clap/tracky tops were our way as bcafc of taking the spirit of the missing fans with us.
It isn't glorified mourning we are famous for, it is understated, so much so that the day usually passes with little or no media interest outside of the local paper and tv news.
Now it has gone, so must the claps and chants, put the flag in one of the areas not currently used for seating and then put an end to this.
For nigh on 30 years we have followed a true, respectful protocol when remembering, we must return to this and stop all these pointless point scoring comments/opinions. It will surely only have negative outcome and is likely to be upsetting for the families and friends of those departed.
Why are people wanting to compare us to the professional mourners of Anfield, perpetual victims? Our honour comes from being exactly polar opposite.
Michael Clayton
says...
11:26am Tue 5 Mar 13
alfucham wrote:What a rambling pile of nonsense.
Ah the law of unintended consequence. Daniel and his mates did something that with the world watching and behind BCFC hopefully ensured that the tragedy was firmly in the worlds eyes. We remember on the eleventh of the eleventh partly in hope that such tragedy of war is never repeated and with gracious thanks to those that saved us. That the world was reminded of OUR tragedy can only reinforce the message never to be complacent.Disaster happens daily. Where I sat it was Asians who suddenly said stand up if you love City. The last twenty minutes will move me for years.A City united in flag waving and noise. 35000 Bradfordians their City (town)trampled and crushed to death through ineptitude of the highest order outpouring "we are Bradford" better than any kop in the Anfield era of standing ever did. Magnificent. Well done re the Flag. Ignore Parker.Wound controversey up for too long.Always misquotes Mark Lawn to get the fans against him. Foreigner who should clear off and keep his opinions to the football. Or better still have NO opinion as much loved and trusted predeccessors David Markham and Don Alred.Nothing tacky from them Mr Nosey Parker. Anyway could be on his P45 soon if the T & A keeps selling less than 20000 from 130000 of that fatefull day approaching 28 years ago. Our neighbour Joe Greig (fire serviceman)was a true hero that day. Leave the clapping at 56 minutes now though.That is tacky and demeaning of respect
Simon Parker used the words "respect, restraint and decorum" in describing what is the Bradford public's attitude to the disaster.That accurately reflects the ethos of those affected over the past twenty-eight years. Those who suffer to this day.
Unfortunately, he comes up against the likes of you; a person who does not understand the basis of a cohesive argument. You are a sympathy seeking merchant with no empathy to those people who have really suffered in the aftermath of the event.
All you seek is collective pity for all the nasty things that have happened e.g. "OUR tragedy" (do you own it?) "trampled and crushed to death" (harsh as it seems, the demise of the textile industry was the beginning of the demise - your have had fourty years to get over that one).
Curiously, by the end of your post you come round to the idea of "demeaning of respect". Besides the fact that phrase does not make any sense it also seems to argue against what you have said.
OTHERS
Simon Parker is not a foreigner.
I don't understand your references to "Asians" although I dare not ask you to explain.
No doubting Mr Greig's bravery and skill, but what relevance do his actions have to your post?
bcfc1903
says...
4:16pm Tue 5 Mar 13
Pondlover wrote:You being the expert in typing pointless post, i'll bow to your expertise. This thread may well be a correct breakdown of BCFC fans opinions on the flag ...it also may not be...it's hardly scientific is it. I'm quite sure that the many BCFC fans i know who have never uttered a word against the flag or it's placement in Valley Parade is also not a scientific cross section of fans opinions either.
bcfc1903 wrote:Not really, it was probably the most pointless post in the entire thread!
Pondlover wrote:Yes...but i haven't met plenty on here have i, i believe BCFC have around 10,000 season ticket holders and flexi card holders, this FEW on this site do not represent anything other than themselves and their own opinions.....and yes i do understand other opinions...do you understand mine?
bcfc1903 wrote:Ah well, good job you have now met plenty of here (at VP 1985 & Wembley 2013) to enable you to understand another opinion.
Regarding the flag, i've yet to meet any BCFC fan who didn't like it at Wembley or not want it in Valley Parade with the other two commemorative flags.
It's a long thread, probably 50/50 split in opinion, it shows you, quite clearly, a split in opinion.
acflem says...
10:24am Sat 2 Mar 13