Muslims are urged to improve image (From Bradford Telegraph and Argus)

Papering over the cracks.

I think that before everybody else is blamed for the negative perception, somebody needs to look in their own backyard. The local youth along with others did a good job of labelling Islam as a violent religion in June 2001.

Ishtiaq Ahmed, of the Bradford Council for Mosques, said: “There’s a widespread negative perception of Islamic values and way of life". Unfortunately reinforced to the wider public on a daily basis by some of the community's youth who seem to be a breed apart when it comes to law abiding behaviour. Before casting blame at the general population for their views a long hard look in the mirror might be in order. A minority of Muslims it might be, but they are the ones in every one else's face daily, dragging the image of the whole down. Sort your own house out first, then complaints of negative stereotypes might carry a bit more weight.

As above. Each time I have to travel through a muslim area I see blatant lawbreaking by the younger generations of the comunity, mess and rubbish and the untidy hoch poch of the sub continents market style.

I know I could see the same in some white areas but my point is that everytime people see this in muslim areas it just confirms the negative image that exisits.

Perhapse if the offending people thought that every time they are on the phone in their car, or not wearing a seatbelt or not cleaning up their shop fronts and homes they only have themselves to blame for the attitudes that they percieve are racist from the indigenous population.

The overwhelming impression that is given is that of ' We are muslims, we rule and we dont give a *&^* about you, your country or your laws and customs'

Someone wise once said, ' Its not what someone says or does that counts, its how they made you feel that you remember ' and each time people see something, hear something or read something that offends them thats what sticks.

There will never be bridges built untill the attitudes from learning the language to respecting the higway code are changed and illegal behaviour is stamped on AND seen to be changed.

spinnekop wrote:
As above. Each time I have to travel through a muslim area I see blatant lawbreaking by the younger generations of the comunity, mess and rubbish and the untidy hoch poch of the sub continents market style. I know I could see the same in some white areas but my point is that everytime people see this in muslim areas it just confirms the negative image that exisits. Perhapse if the offending people thought that every time they are on the phone in their car, or not wearing a seatbelt or not cleaning up their shop fronts and homes they only have themselves to blame for the attitudes that they percieve are racist from the indigenous population. The overwhelming impression that is given is that of ' We are muslims, we rule and we dont give a *&^* about you, your country or your laws and customs' Someone wise once said, ' Its not what someone says or does that counts, its how they made you feel that you remember ' and each time people see something, hear something or read something that offends them thats what sticks. There will never be bridges built untill the attitudes from learning the language to respecting the higway code are changed and illegal behaviour is stamped on AND seen to be changed.

An excellent post. Agree wholeheartedly. Which, of course, means it is only a short period of time away before the spineless T&A remove the post.

As a muslim - I agree that some, albeit mainly youthful, muslims have not helped the muslim perception. However, I would encourage those want to know about true Islam, then pick up a copy of the Quran in English (Available in most librararies in Bradford district) or read the life of the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) on the Internet

Individuals like Gandhi, napolean etc have all praised Muhammad after doing exactly that.

This has *nothing* to do with religion. Boys will be boys (unfortunately).

at least the mosques are doing something unlike the catholic church brushing abuse under the carpet. Also currently the city has got bad national press again, i dont think the crossbow cannibal is a muslim?

I'm not sure one can blame a few Muslim youth for the widespread perception of Islam, anymore than one can judge Leeds Footbal Club by the actions of a few of its supporters.
Rather look toward those who educate the youngsters at home and in the Mosques. I live with a family of four children, none of who would disrespect their environment or another person.
Its always about values.

Why is it when a muslim does something wrong the religion is brought into it; you say that if you go into white area you "could" see the same; no you WILL see the same; i work in a area of white people and all i see is drug dealing, people on the phone and driving and not wearing seatbelts so why is it no religion is mentioned in this case?! The religion islam is about peace which will explain why so many people convert to it& the ones that act upon it lead a peaceful life and the ones that don't will have to face the consequences what we believe in being the hereafter AND if they are breaking the law as you say then that is why we have the police and other authorities to deal with peolke like that no matter what the colour or creed so no need to stress yourself too much because every dog has his day sooner or later they will get caught and be dealt with accordingly

Fuj19831 wrote:
Why is it when a muslim does something wrong the religion is brought into it; you say that if you go into white area you "could" see the same; no you WILL see the same; i work in a area of white people and all i see is drug dealing, people on the phone and driving and not wearing seatbelts so why is it no religion is mentioned in this case?! The religion islam is about peace which will explain why so many people convert to it& the ones that act upon it lead a peaceful life and the ones that don't will have to face the consequences what we believe in being the hereafter AND if they are breaking the law as you say then that is why we have the police and other authorities to deal with peolke like that no matter what the colour or creed so no need to stress yourself too much because every dog has his day sooner or later they will get caught and be dealt with accordingly

Riddle me this joker, the main drug of choice in Bradford, heroin, comes from where?

turbodiesel wrote:
at least the mosques are doing something unlike the catholic church brushing abuse under the carpet. Also currently the city has got bad national press again, i dont think the crossbow cannibal is a muslim?

Where his victims halal?

Unless they can stop the barbaric acts carried out in the name of Islam, throughout the world, then there will always be a problem.

In the 1970's a lot of Irish were treat with distrust.

It's not an issue with Islam at all, it an issue with fundamentalists damaging the religion by claiming every barbaric act in it's name!

Locally, a bit more of an attempt to integrate might help, at the moment Asian areas seem to be quite happy to bring their own little part of homeland to Bradford.

The brits never integrate where ever they have gone, have they taken on the aboriginal culture in oz or the native american one in america. i had the unfortunate experience of going to puero beunos last year i might as well have been in hte middle of belfast, the only difference was the climate. All the brits had their signs in English. pot calling kettle black comes to mind.

Bingley Chicken wrote:

Fuj19831 wrote:
Why is it when a muslim does something wrong the religion is brought into it; you say that if you go into white area you "could" see the same; no you WILL see the same; i work in a area of white people and all i see is drug dealing, people on the phone and driving and not wearing seatbelts so why is it no religion is mentioned in this case?! The religion islam is about peace which will explain why so many people convert to it& the ones that act upon it lead a peaceful life and the ones that don't will have to face the consequences what we believe in being the hereafter AND if they are breaking the law as you say then that is why we have the police and other authorities to deal with peolke like that no matter what the colour or creed so no need to stress yourself too much because every dog has his day sooner or later they will get caught and be dealt with accordingly

Riddle me this joker, the main drug of choice in Bradford, heroin, comes from where?

@bingley chicken
true it does come from Afghanistan no wounder the british n americans are out there to take over the trade.lmao

bluecorner100 wrote:
As a muslim - I agree that some, albeit mainly youthful, muslims have not helped the muslim perception. However, I would encourage those want to know about true Islam, then pick up a copy of the Quran in English (Available in most librararies in Bradford district) or read the life of the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) on the Internet

Individuals like Gandhi, napolean etc have all praised Muhammad after doing exactly that.

Like most people I don't have a problem with Muslims in general but maybe you should be encouraging the feral Muslim youths who do so much to tarnish the community's reputation to buy, read and digest the Koran rather than the general public.

turbodiesel wrote:
The brits never integrate where ever they have gone, have they taken on the aboriginal culture in oz or the native american one in america. i had the unfortunate experience of going to puero beunos last year i might as well have been in hte middle of belfast, the only difference was the climate. All the brits had their signs in English. pot calling kettle black comes to mind.

I'd say Australia and America are very integrated, far more than in the UK!

Groups of ex-Pats abroad generally create a pleasant environment for themselves. All people I know who go to like abroad do so for the climate and a better standard of living, they integrate with the culture as much as possible as it's generally one of the attractions of moving abroad! I doubt very much they want to change the values and morals of any country they go to live in, if they don't like them then they don't go there.

Bingley Chicken wrote:

Fuj19831 wrote:
Why is it when a muslim does something wrong the religion is brought into it; you say that if you go into white area you "could" see the same; no you WILL see the same; i work in a area of white people and all i see is drug dealing, people on the phone and driving and not wearing seatbelts so why is it no religion is mentioned in this case?! The religion islam is about peace which will explain why so many people convert to it& the ones that act upon it lead a peaceful life and the ones that don't will have to face the consequences what we believe in being the hereafter AND if they are breaking the law as you say then that is why we have the police and other authorities to deal with peolke like that no matter what the colour or creed so no need to stress yourself too much because every dog has his day sooner or later they will get caught and be dealt with accordingly

Riddle me this joker, the main drug of choice in Bradford, heroin, comes from where?

The Zionist Neo-Cons are deliberately turning a blind eye to the poppy fields in said country.
.
Maybe that was just one of the plans all along ?
.
(the other being to secure the trans-Afghan pipeline)...

Andraste wrote:

Bingley Chicken wrote:

Fuj19831 wrote:
Why is it when a muslim does something wrong the religion is brought into it; you say that if you go into white area you "could" see the same; no you WILL see the same; i work in a area of white people and all i see is drug dealing, people on the phone and driving and not wearing seatbelts so why is it no religion is mentioned in this case?! The religion islam is about peace which will explain why so many people convert to it& the ones that act upon it lead a peaceful life and the ones that don't will have to face the consequences what we believe in being the hereafter AND if they are breaking the law as you say then that is why we have the police and other authorities to deal with peolke like that no matter what the colour or creed so no need to stress yourself too much because every dog has his day sooner or later they will get caught and be dealt with accordingly

Riddle me this joker, the main drug of choice in Bradford, heroin, comes from where?

The Zionist Neo-Cons are deliberately turning a blind eye to the poppy fields in said country.
.
Maybe that was just one of the plans all along ?
.
(the other being to secure the trans-Afghan pipeline)...

That hasnt even been built.

albion wrote:

Andraste wrote:

Bingley Chicken wrote:

Fuj19831 wrote:
Why is it when a muslim does something wrong the religion is brought into it; you say that if you go into white area you "could" see the same; no you WILL see the same; i work in a area of white people and all i see is drug dealing, people on the phone and driving and not wearing seatbelts so why is it no religion is mentioned in this case?! The religion islam is about peace which will explain why so many people convert to it& the ones that act upon it lead a peaceful life and the ones that don't will have to face the consequences what we believe in being the hereafter AND if they are breaking the law as you say then that is why we have the police and other authorities to deal with peolke like that no matter what the colour or creed so no need to stress yourself too much because every dog has his day sooner or later they will get caught and be dealt with accordingly

Riddle me this joker, the main drug of choice in Bradford, heroin, comes from where?

The Zionist Neo-Cons are deliberately turning a blind eye to the poppy fields in said country.
.
Maybe that was just one of the plans all along ?
.
(the other being to secure the trans-Afghan pipeline)...

That hasnt even been built.

The troops are there to secure said pipeline (whether it's been built or *being* built).
.
And btw albion, you admit that *that* one of the core reasons why we're in Afghanistan ?
.
(apart from the BS of spreading 'democracy')

The media needs to change on how they report "news". (But that will never be!)
Have you realised how when someone is arrested they have the word "Muslim" or "Islamist" next to them?

I didn't see Stephen Griffiths or Derrick Bird's faith pointed out or if they're atheists, it being mentioned.

Take a step back, research and you see the real agenda.

albion wrote:

turbodiesel wrote:
at least the mosques are doing something unlike the catholic church brushing abuse under the carpet. Also currently the city has got bad national press again, i dont think the crossbow cannibal is a muslim?

Where his victims halal?

Albion , I am disgusted on reading these comments. These were people, who had feelings, families and loved ones who are still grieving from what they have had to endure.

You have been very disrespectful and should hang your head in shame.

I did not wish to comment on this story but I could not hold back after seeing what you posted.

A Muslim, I am indeed!

bluecorner100, keighley I dont think you should be encouraging people to read the Quran.

10. A husband has sex with his wife, as a plow goes into a field.

The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223 says:

Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . . (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004)

9. Husbands are a degree above their wives.

The Quran in Sura 2:228 says:

. . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165)

8. A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female.

The Quran in Sura 4:11 says:

The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311)

7. A woman’s testimony counts half of a man’s testimony.

The Quran in Sura 2:282 says:

And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents . But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 205).

6. A wife may remarry her ex—husband if and only if she marries another man and then this second man divorces her.

The Quran in Sura 2:230 says:

And if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain his lawful wife after this (absolute) divorce, unless she marries another husband and the second husband divorces her. there is no harm if they remarry . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 165)

5. Slave—girls are sexual property for their male owners.

The Quran in Sura 4:24 says:

And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 319).

4. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:3 says:

And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 305)

3. A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:129 says:

It is not within your power to be perfectly equitable in your treatment with all your wives, even if you wish to be so; therefore, do not lean towards one wife so as to leave the other in a state of suspense. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 381)

2. Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded).

The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:

4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them , then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added)

1. Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls.

The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says:

65:1 O Prophet, when you divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added)

The prophet himself married a 6 year old and had sex with a 9 year old. Dont tell me this was the norm of the time, norm or no norm surely God wouldnt want us to do this.

The Jews are to be eliminated

Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.” This friendship makes any Muslim a enemy of their own and deserving of the same fate as the unbeliever. This is because God does not guide an unjust people.

Of the Unbelievers: Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Isn't this just the most peaceful book ever?

Haji wrote:

albion wrote:

turbodiesel wrote:
at least the mosques are doing something unlike the catholic church brushing abuse under the carpet. Also currently the city has got bad national press again, i dont think the crossbow cannibal is a muslim?

Where his victims halal?

Albion , I am disgusted on reading these comments. These were people, who had feelings, families and loved ones who are still grieving from what they have had to endure.

You have been very disrespectful and should hang your head in shame.

I did not wish to comment on this story but I could not hold back after seeing what you posted.

A Muslim, I am indeed!

Being a cold hearted monster I dont give a ****.

Flockton Grove wrote:
bluecorner100, keighley I dont think you should be encouraging people to read the Quran.

10. A husband has sex with his wife, as a plow goes into a field.

The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223 says:

Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . . (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004)

9. Husbands are a degree above their wives.

The Quran in Sura 2:228 says:

. . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165)

8. A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female.

The Quran in Sura 4:11 says:

The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311)

7. A woman’s testimony counts half of a man’s testimony.

The Quran in Sura 2:282 says:

And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents . But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 205).

6. A wife may remarry her ex—husband if and only if she marries another man and then this second man divorces her.

The Quran in Sura 2:230 says:

And if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain his lawful wife after this (absolute) divorce, unless she marries another husband and the second husband divorces her. there is no harm if they remarry . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 165)

5. Slave—girls are sexual property for their male owners.

The Quran in Sura 4:24 says:

And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 319).

4. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:3 says:

And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 305)

3. A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:129 says:

It is not within your power to be perfectly equitable in your treatment with all your wives, even if you wish to be so; therefore, do not lean towards one wife so as to leave the other in a state of suspense. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 381)

2. Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded).

The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:

4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them , then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added)

1. Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls.

The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says:

65:1 O Prophet, when you divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added)

The prophet himself married a 6 year old and had sex with a 9 year old. Dont tell me this was the norm of the time, norm or no norm surely God wouldnt want us to do this.

The Jews are to be eliminated

Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.” This friendship makes any Muslim a enemy of their own and deserving of the same fate as the unbeliever. This is because God does not guide an unjust people.

Of the Unbelievers: Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Isn't this just the most peaceful book ever?

You wouldn't want your kids reading that would you?.

Fuj19831 wrote:
Why is it when a muslim does something wrong the religion is brought into it; you say that if you go into white area you "could" see the same; no you WILL see the same; i work in a area of white people and all i see is drug dealing, people on the phone and driving and not wearing seatbelts so why is it no religion is mentioned in this case?! The religion islam is about peace which will explain why so many people convert to it& the ones that act upon it lead a peaceful life and the ones that don't will have to face the consequences what we believe in being the hereafter AND if they are breaking the law as you say then that is why we have the police and other authorities to deal with peolke like that no matter what the colour or creed so no need to stress yourself too much because every dog has his day sooner or later they will get caught and be dealt with accordingly

And why is it that when law-breakers of Pakistani descent get caught they claim victimisation as muslims? Maybe it is because 'being muslim' is the identity of choice (ie compared to 'being British') that it gets the response that it does. No wonder that there are so many islamaphobes in the west. I would suspect that you'd have the same findings to a similar survey from the indigenous Dutch, French, Germans or Danes for example. Hardly unique to Bradford or indeed the UK.

bredandbuttered wrote:

Flockton Grove wrote: bluecorner100, keighley I dont think you should be encouraging people to read the Quran. 10. A husband has sex with his wife, as a plow goes into a field. The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223 says: Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . . (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004) 9. Husbands are a degree above their wives. The Quran in Sura 2:228 says: . . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165) 8. A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female. The Quran in Sura 4:11 says: The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311) 7. A woman’s testimony counts half of a man’s testimony. The Quran in Sura 2:282 says: And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents . But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 205). 6. A wife may remarry her ex—husband if and only if she marries another man and then this second man divorces her. The Quran in Sura 2:230 says: And if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain his lawful wife after this (absolute) divorce, unless she marries another husband and the second husband divorces her. there is no harm if they remarry . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 165) 5. Slave—girls are sexual property for their male owners. The Quran in Sura 4:24 says: And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 319). 4. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives. The Quran in Sura 4:3 says: And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 305) 3. A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives. The Quran in Sura 4:129 says: It is not within your power to be perfectly equitable in your treatment with all your wives, even if you wish to be so; therefore, do not lean towards one wife so as to leave the other in a state of suspense. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 381) 2. Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded). The Quran in Sura 4:34 says: 4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them , then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added) 1. Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls. The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says: 65:1 O Prophet, when you divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added) The prophet himself married a 6 year old and had sex with a 9 year old. Dont tell me this was the norm of the time, norm or no norm surely God wouldnt want us to do this. The Jews are to be eliminated Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.” This friendship makes any Muslim a enemy of their own and deserving of the same fate as the unbeliever. This is because God does not guide an unjust people. Of the Unbelievers: Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” Isn't this just the most peaceful book ever?

You wouldn't want your kids reading that would you?.

The Bible, especiallythe Old Testament, has just as bad passages. Do you want your children reading that.
It amazes me when people waste their time "quoting" from the Quran and are unaware of the violent and ridiculous statements in the Bible. If it was followed I doubt if there would be a person left in Bradford as we'd all be "stoned to death" or slaves.

Billcliff wrote:

bredandbuttered wrote:

Flockton Grove wrote: bluecorner100, keighley I dont think you should be encouraging people to read the Quran. 10. A husband has sex with his wife, as a plow goes into a field. The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223 says: Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . . (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004) 9. Husbands are a degree above their wives. The Quran in Sura 2:228 says: . . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165) 8. A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female. The Quran in Sura 4:11 says: The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311) 7. A woman’s testimony counts half of a man’s testimony. The Quran in Sura 2:282 says: And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents . But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 205). 6. A wife may remarry her ex—husband if and only if she marries another man and then this second man divorces her. The Quran in Sura 2:230 says: And if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain his lawful wife after this (absolute) divorce, unless she marries another husband and the second husband divorces her. there is no harm if they remarry . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 165) 5. Slave—girls are sexual property for their male owners. The Quran in Sura 4:24 says: And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 319). 4. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives. The Quran in Sura 4:3 says: And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 305) 3. A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives. The Quran in Sura 4:129 says: It is not within your power to be perfectly equitable in your treatment with all your wives, even if you wish to be so; therefore, do not lean towards one wife so as to leave the other in a state of suspense. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 381) 2. Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded). The Quran in Sura 4:34 says: 4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them , then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added) 1. Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls. The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says: 65:1 O Prophet, when you divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added) The prophet himself married a 6 year old and had sex with a 9 year old. Dont tell me this was the norm of the time, norm or no norm surely God wouldnt want us to do this. The Jews are to be eliminated Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.” This friendship makes any Muslim a enemy of their own and deserving of the same fate as the unbeliever. This is because God does not guide an unjust people. Of the Unbelievers: Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” Isn't this just the most peaceful book ever?

You wouldn't want your kids reading that would you?.

The Bible, especiallythe Old Testament, has just as bad passages. Do you want your children reading that.
It amazes me when people waste their time "quoting" from the Quran and are unaware of the violent and ridiculous statements in the Bible. If it was followed I doubt if there would be a person left in Bradford as we'd all be "stoned to death" or slaves.

Quite so, and I would agree with anyone who says it is (like the Koran) a load of rubbish designed to control the gullible.
But read the headline and the report, the Bible isnt relevant here whereas the Koran is.

But let's take your post in a "real world" context - reading a cookery book doesn't make you a good cook!

4verage Jo wrote:
The media needs to change on how they report "news". (But that will never be!)
Have you realised how when someone is arrested they have the word "Muslim" or "Islamist" next to them?

I didn't see Stephen Griffiths or Derrick Bird's faith pointed out or if they're atheists, it being mentioned.

Take a step back, research and you see the real agenda.

Just to point out that some news reports mentioned that Derrick Bird was a disatisfied Christian.

bluecorner100 wrote:
As a muslim - I agree that some, albeit mainly youthful, muslims have not helped the muslim perception. However, I would encourage those want to know about true Islam, then pick up a copy of the Quran in English (Available in most librararies in Bradford district) or read the life of the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) on the Internet

Individuals like Gandhi, napolean etc have all praised Muhammad after doing exactly that.

But let's take your post in a "real world" context - reading a cookery book doesn't make you a good cook!

albion wrote:

Billcliff wrote:

bredandbuttered wrote:

Flockton Grove wrote: bluecorner100, keighley I dont think you should be encouraging people to read the Quran. 10. A husband has sex with his wife, as a plow goes into a field. The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223 says: Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . . (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004) 9. Husbands are a degree above their wives. The Quran in Sura 2:228 says: . . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165) 8. A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female. The Quran in Sura 4:11 says: The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311) 7. A woman’s testimony counts half of a man’s testimony. The Quran in Sura 2:282 says: And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents . But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 205). 6. A wife may remarry her ex—husband if and only if she marries another man and then this second man divorces her. The Quran in Sura 2:230 says: And if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain his lawful wife after this (absolute) divorce, unless she marries another husband and the second husband divorces her. there is no harm if they remarry . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 165) 5. Slave—girls are sexual property for their male owners. The Quran in Sura 4:24 says: And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 319). 4. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives. The Quran in Sura 4:3 says: And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 305) 3. A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives. The Quran in Sura 4:129 says: It is not within your power to be perfectly equitable in your treatment with all your wives, even if you wish to be so; therefore, do not lean towards one wife so as to leave the other in a state of suspense. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 381) 2. Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded). The Quran in Sura 4:34 says: 4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them , then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added) 1. Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls. The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says: 65:1 O Prophet, when you divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added) The prophet himself married a 6 year old and had sex with a 9 year old. Dont tell me this was the norm of the time, norm or no norm surely God wouldnt want us to do this. The Jews are to be eliminated Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.” This friendship makes any Muslim a enemy of their own and deserving of the same fate as the unbeliever. This is because God does not guide an unjust people. Of the Unbelievers: Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” Isn't this just the most peaceful book ever?

You wouldn't want your kids reading that would you?.

The Bible, especiallythe Old Testament, has just as bad passages. Do you want your children reading that.
It amazes me when people waste their time "quoting" from the Quran and are unaware of the violent and ridiculous statements in the Bible. If it was followed I doubt if there would be a person left in Bradford as we'd all be "stoned to death" or slaves.

Quite so, and I would agree with anyone who says it is (like the Koran) a load of rubbish designed to control the gullible.
But read the headline and the report, the Bible isnt relevant here whereas the Koran is.

Where did I say the Bible was any better?
I agree with Albion here.
I wouldn't want such hatred foisted on anyone from any sacred text.
Its a book, written by a bloke who would probably be in the Big Brother house if still alive.

Islam give 2 shares to the man and 1 to the woman, as the man has an OBLIGATION to provide for his family, the woman doesn't. Different roles but equality.

Four wives were allowed as during the spread of Islam many men (The providers) were killed and and to avoid these women falling into vices like prostitutution, married men were allowed to marry these were women for protection.

The Prophet married aisha at 9 years of age, which was/is considered pubescent age in Islam

All his other wives were over 16

Mary was 12 years old when she married 90 year old Joseph - It is in the bible.

Please Read below which i have copied from an aritlce:
Ayshia(r.a) was NOT 6 years old, but 9 years old at the time of Her Marriage! Hadith of Aishah‘s Age: 'Aishah, may Allah be pleased with her, narrated that the Step 2: AFTER the girl reaches her Menses. This is because the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) consummated his marriage after Aisha(r.a)
reached PUBERTY. Islam does not support Pedophilia or child
molestation under any circumstances. This is because the Quran
associates marriage to physical & mental maturity and Adulthood.
I will givetwo Quran verses toprove this:

Noble Quran 4:6 Make trial of orphans until theyREACH the age of marriage; if
then you findSOU ND judgment in them, release their property to
them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their
growing up. If the guardian is well off, Let him claim no
remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is
just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take
witnesses in their presence: But all sufficient is God in taking
account.

Noble Quran 4:21 ..and how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant Both of these Verses together indicate that marriage is a COVENANT! (agreement) between men and women at the age of maturity and where they can make good judgments. Therefore they have to be developed. Prophet(P) was betrothed(zawaj)to her when she was 6 years old and he consummated (nikah) his marriage when she was 9 years old , and then she remained with him for 9 years. Proof:(Saheeh al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, No.64)Note:Of the 4 hadith in
Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64
and7:65),1 from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and 1 via 'Ursa (7:88). All 3
of the hadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aisha as a narrator.
Additionally, all of the hadith in both books agree that the marriage
betrothal contract took place when 'Aisha was "6 years old'',but

was not consummated(meaning: fulfilled or complete the marriage) until she was "9 years old". Muslim scholars without any disagreement that there was no
official marriage until she reached 9 years of age as stated in the
most renowned 'hadith'. Hadith are complied series of facts based
on the Prophet Muhammad's (may Allah grant peace be upon
him)life and his sayings on specific aspects of life such as
marriage, business, acts of worship etc which are called 'Sunnah'.
For muslims, knowledge is taken from both the Quran and Sunnah.
From the hadith, it is stated that averbal contract for marriage was
made when Aisha (may Allaah grant peace upon her) at the age of
6 years oldbut the marriage was not conducted at this age so it is
clear that it was not consummated(complete
d)

Important note: Furthermore, the Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him) and Aisha were engaged only by a word of
mouth(promise) for 2 years before they married. And as stated
previously, they did not consummate the marriage until Aisha
reached puberty so she can make a clear confirmation of her

approval of marriage at 9 years old. And only then did she move into the Prophet's house (peace and blessings be upon him) Aisha
was 9 YEARS OLD when the contract of marriage was full filled
by her consent. This is confirmed by hadith as stated: Aisha(r.a)
reported: Allah’s Apostle''...admitted (me) to his house when I was

nine years old(Sahih Muslim: Book 008, No.3310) And (Saheeh al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, No.64) which states.. (Aisha)consummated(c
ompleted) her marriage when she was9 years old. Note: you can not force a lady to marry youw ithout her consent and to come live with you at your house right? how do we know this lets read bellow": (Allah the Most High) says: O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden
to inherit women against their will, Nor should ye treat them
with harshness. Qu’ran An-nisa 19.

`This amazing verse in the Quran indicates that you canNOT
marry women against their will, proving that force marriages in
Islam is clearly forbidden! It's only through the consent of the
spouse that the marriage becomes lawful.

Note: The Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings of allaah be upon him) said: “a previously-married woman should not be married without being consulted, and a virgin should not be married
without asking her permission.” they said, “o Messenger of
Allaah, how is her permission given?” he said, “by her silence.”
(reported by al-bukhaari, 6455).

Now the Question is? can a 9 years old give consent and sound
judgment? firstly we have to investigate whether she has reached
puberty why? because:

The Fact of reaching pubertyMENT becoming anA DU LT in terms ofMAT UR IT Y,BEHAV IOU R andRESPON SIBILITY. which comes fromwestern source's: Journal of social History Online Etymology Dictionary Journal of marriage and family etc.Let us continue... What are the Islamic Rules about Attaining Puberty. Girls Boys 1) Pubic hair 1) Pubic hair 2) 15 years old 2) Seminal discharge 3) Sexual arousal discharge 3) 15 years old 4) Menses If any ONE of these 3 or 4 for girls appears he/she has reached the age of accountability and is no longer achild Islamically. Now let us compare the above with the common Western definition according to ‘American Heritage Dictionary: for adolescent, adultand child. Adolescent:(²d”l-
μs“…nt)adj.1. Of, relating to, or undergoing adolescence. See Synonyms at young. --ad·o·les·centn. A young person who has undergone puberty but who has not reached full maturity; a teenager.

Adult:(…-d¾lt“, ²d“¾lt)n.1. One who has attained maturity or legal age.2.Biology. A fully grown, mature organism.--a·dult adj.1. Fully developed and mature. 2. Intended for or befitting adults: adult education. Child: (ch؛ld (n ,.pl .chil·dren (ch¹l“dr…n).Abb
r. ch. 1. A person between birth and puberty.2.a. An unborn infant; a fetus.b. An infant; a baby.3. One who is Step 3: There is aMisconception that when Aisha was 9 years old she was still a prepubescent child? Step 4: childish or immature.4. A son or daughter; an offspring. Now let us sum up all 3 definitions: Adolescent: A young person who has undergone puberty but who has not reached full maturity; Adult: One who has attained maturity or legal age Child: A person between birth and puberty. Now let us look at the definition of the word “puberty” from the same source, which is as follows: Puberty:(py›“b�
�r- t¶ )n. 1. The stage of adolescence in which an individual becomes physiologically capable of sexual reproduction. I am sure that now the readers would not have any difficulty in
connecting the word“adolescent ” with the word“puberty.”
Notice, there is no fixed age limit that can be imposed when he/she can be an adolescent and/or of the age of puberty or when a person is capable of sexual
reproduction. Even science cannot prove this; the age of
puberty may vary among people, especially girls. But it is not
uncommon for girls to attain puberty at the age of nine and
some even have bleeding prior to the age of nine, which
according to Islamic Shariah شريعه is calledIstehada, before
the age of nine. Let us continue....

Unfortunately for some ignorant people they think a child is
A LWAYS defined by her age? this can be true to a certain
extent however its NOT a correct observation since some
children can develop into adolescences much earlier then
others. Many people forget that DEVELOPMENT is what
must be absurd to determine those issue's and if she is
developed with breasts, pubic hair, menses(period) she is no
longer a child but she has become a adolescent.

Chart: Infant Birth to 3 Years Child 4 -8 Adolescent 9 - 12 (Aisha's Marriage) Teen 13-19 Adult 20 & over Important Note:9 year old can be considered a child if she has NOT yet reached puberty. Aisha's age of 9 years does NOT define a prepubescent girl.
What defines a prepubescent child is the fact of reaching
puberty or not. As the dictionary meaning interprets bellow:

Dictionary meaning for prepubescent - (especially of human beings) at the age immediately before puberty; often marked by
accelerated growth. from free online dictionary: source
http://www.thefreedi
ctionary.com/prepube
scent

So if Aisha did reach PUBERTY by Age 9 then this NO longer makes her a prepubescent child according to the definition.
What is the Medical DictionaryMeaningof Pedophilia? So did Aisha have her menses and did she go
throughPUB ERTY at the time of her fulfillment
of Marriage at 9 years old no longer making her a
child or prepubescent girl ?

''YES SHE DID'' here is the fact that Aisha had her menses and went through puberty and was a developed young lady at 9 years old. Aisha(r.a) reported: Allah’s Apostle''...admitted (me) to his house when I was nine years old(Sahih Muslim: Book 008, No.3310) The relevant hadith by Aisha proves that she had passed puberty
because she said “The Prophet used to tell us during our period to
wear a skirt before (physically) approaching us".

The messenger of Allah (SAW) said to me: Get me the mat from
the mosque''. I said: ''I am menstruating''. Upon this he
remarked: ''Your menstruation is not in your hands.” Proof:(Sahih
Muslim:Hadith No.15973) Also (Sahi Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book
6, No. 299)
You can also see Aisha beingil l

Step 5: Pedophilia: Sex or sexual activity with children who have not reachedpube r ty. http://medical-dicti
onary.thefreediction
ary.com/Pedofilia And if Aisha DID have Puberty then this clears the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) name from Pedophilia!!! LETS SEE BELLOW; going through menses before
marriage.P roof:(Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, No.234)
In this hadith:''Aisha got ill and her body was going throughsome

changes, indicating that she was going through her puberty. Conclusion: Puberty is what distinguishes the difference between a child
and a young lady as demonstrated in step 3, which will be high
lighted further in Step 8. Puberty ultimately means she has
passed her childhood and prepubescent stage becoming a

adolescent” young lady or young person which was the case withAisha since she reached puberty she has become an adolescent” at the time of her marriage! clearly PROVING she was NO longer a prepubescent Child, hence Aisha being able to give her OWN JUDGEMENT in regards to MARRIAGE CONSENT As the journal states: The Fact of reaching pubertyMENT becoming anA DU LT in terms ofMAT UR IT Y,BEHAV IOU R andRESPON SIBILITY. which comes fromwestern source's: Journal of social History Online Etymology Dictionary Journal of marriage and family etc Now this is un refutable fact! Further more we will give more evidencein step 8 that Aisha did reach Puberty according to science since she was married well in between the Puberty time frame of 8 and 13 years of age. Even Lady:AISHA CONFESSED THIS TRUTH THAT SHE WAS AWOMAN! Lady Aisha said: “If the young girl reaches 9 years, then she is a woman. Note: She is obviously describing herself and her acquaintances! Further more: if the prophet was a Pedophile as Anti-Islamist claim, why didn’t the Prophet Muhammad consummate(complete) the marriage to Aisha when she was 6 years old? Surely a The Age of Mary Mother of Jesus was 12 years old when she married 90 years old Joseph! Many haters want to complain about the Marriage of the Prophet to
(Aisha) but they don’t want to complain the age of (Mary the
mother of Jesus)’’Joseph, Mary's husband, was 90 years old! when
he married 12 years old Mary! Catholic Encyclopedia
Visit catholic Proof references: Look under Subtitle: (Her betrothal
to Joseph) Jewish maidens were considered marriageable at the age
of (twelve) years and six months etc..at: Christian websites:

Proof 1: http://www.newadvent
.org/cathen/15464b.h
tm (Catholic Encyclopedia) Proof 2: http://www.catholic.
com/library/Mary_Eve
r_Virgin.asp (Subtitles:The Protoevangelium of James Mary was 12 years OLD!!) Step 6: pedophile will accept this offer right? Why would the Prophetwai t 2-3 years for Aisha to grow up? does that sound like a pedophile to you? AbsolutelyN O T. A pedophile will accept it from day ONE.
The Prophet Muhammad clearly didn’t accept the marriage consent
which even led to Aisha'a father Abu bekir: Urging the prophet to

marry his daughter; Proof:''Lady Aisha narrated: “Abu Bakr(Aisha's father) told him''(Muhammed) ‘What prevents you from
consummating(marryin
g) with your wife? So he
consummated(complete
d our marriage)“.

How could a father urge a pedophile to marry his daughter does
that make sense? And why wouldn’t a pedophilenot accept the
marriage at 6 years old but rather waits for her to grow up? This in
it's self refutes the whole Anti-Islamic possession!

Step 7: Regarding the marriage of Mary to Joseph, Catholic
Encyclopedia (http://www.newadven
t.org/cathen/08504a.
htm),
Under sub title:

Marriage "When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha
or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years
together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the
youngest of whom was James (the Less, "the Lord's brother"). A
year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea
that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to
espouse Mary, thentwelve to fourteen years of age, Joseph, who
was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the
candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of
Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place."

Note: That article on Catholic Encyclopedia obtains its information from early Christian writing includingapocryphal writings. Apocryphal writings: http://www.newadvent
.org/cathen/01601a.h
tm So Aisha (r.a) who was 9 years old according to hadith. And Mary(
mother of Jesus) who was 12 years were young women who
reached there menses and went through PUBERTY and decided to
get married!

Note from me: I want to raise aQuest ion to Christians.’ Would you Marry your daughter toJesus if she reached her menses, and if Jesus asked for her hand? if (yes)then you need to be consistent. If (No) are you saying you don’tTRUST Jesus?
Age of consent Marriage in the Christian Bible is PUBERTY! Important note: The bible does not give an Age to marriage, but what it does give is puberty as the minimum completely consistent
with the age of the Prophet's wife Aisha.
Keep in mind both forMary the Mother of Jesus andA ish a ’s
young marriage was a PRACTISE even in the Christian bible i
will show you 2 verses in the Bible to prove this:

1 Corinthians 7:36-38 (King James Version) 36But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age(puberty), and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry. Ezekiel 16:4-14 it state's a girl after her breast and pubic hair developed he had sex with her, Ezekiel 16:4-14:‘’You grew up and
developed and became the most beautiful of jewels. Yourbreasts
were formed and your(pubic )hair grew, you who were naked and
bare. Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you
were old enough forLOVE‘’,

Evidence of Puberty are: A) Breast Formed B)Pubic Hair Even: Sam shamoun a Christian missionary who writes Anti- islamic articles about islam on line; Agrees the Age of consent in the Bible Ezekiel 16:4-14 is Puberty! This is what Sam
Shamoun said at his website commenting on (Ezekiel 16:4-14)
at:http ://w w w.answ ering- is lam.org /Shamoun /marr iage_age.ht m

Sam shamoun said''
What the readers of our site may not know is that the Holy
Bible makes a reference to the general age of a girl considered
for marriage. The reference is found in a parable(Ezekiel 16:4-14)

where God likens Israel to a baby girl whom Yahweh took in and When doesPU BE RTY start according toModern day Science and when does a female Childdevelop into a young teen(young lady)? *TheEvidence of adeveloped young woman are as follows: Step 8: then eventually married. The parable proceeds to liken Israel’s
dabble with idolatry to a wife who commits adultery and
prostitution. Not only does this specific parable present the

marriageable age of a girl, the parable also assumes that this is
a fact that was already well known and observed by the
peoples, specifically Israel. God mentions that the young babe
attained the age for lovemaking after her breasts had formed
and her pubic hairs had grown, clear signs of puberty.The

reason we believe that the reference is to pubic hair is becausea)
the hair on the head of a girl grows many years before reaching the
time of puberty, andb) the connection to nakedness suggests that
the exposure of her body parts needed to be covered since it was
shameful for them to be exposed for all to see. In other words,
there was no shame for the hair of a girl’s head to be uncovered,
but exposing one’s pubic hairs would be.

ABOVE: TheBIBLE passage and SAM SHAMOUN agree 100% the minimum age for a girl ready for marriage is PUBERTY!! which was the EXACT case with AISHA the wife of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). We can no doubt clearly see that the Bible supports this in verse Ezekiel 16:4-14:''that after he: realized her (breast) were formed and she had (pubic hair) she was ready for ''LOVE''. And according to her AGE in the bible she was anywhere between age's 8-13 yrs Old, which is the age a girl's breast's form according toSC IEN CE, here is the proof: A)she has gone throughPuberty: You grow taller. Your shoulders and hips may broaden. You could
put on weight for a while. Your breasts grow. You grow hair under
your arms, pubic hair around your vulva, and you may notice more
hair on your arms and legs or around your nipples. Your voice gets
a bit deeper, though not as noticeably as a boy's does. You hair and
skin might get oily and you might get pimples. They won't last
forever)You may already have started having periods. Blood
comes out of your vagina for a few days, usually about once a
month. It means you are now able to conceive - in other words,

male spermatozoa can make you pregnant. You may already have started having periods. Proof:http://health.
ninemsn.com.au/artic
le.aspx?id=2983 B) She has developedB reast: SCIENCE HEALTH WEB SITE:’ Although puberty usually starts between ages 8 to 13 in girls, it may start earlier or later. Everyone's body changes at a different time. Whether you have BREAST AT AGE 10 or have not started your period by age 14, do not worry. Everyone goes through puberty eventually''.(Proof Science health web- site):http://www.hea
lthtouch.com/bin/ECo
ntent_HT/cnoteShowLf
t s.asp? fname=07103&title=PU
BERTY+IN+GIRLS+&cid=
HTHLTH Point 1: From the above ScientificEvidence! the girl who was ready to have sexual intercourse in the (Bible- Ezekiel 16:4-14) was no doubt between the ages 8 to 14 which clearly proves the Bible accepts and confirms the age of consent isP UB E RTY! So now we can say with confidence theP rophet
Muhammed's(pbuh)Marr
iage to his wife Aishia is now BIBLICAL!! Point 2: From above ScientificEvidence! its also Biological and ScientificFA C T ! when women who have had there MENSES and gone through PUBERTY and developed breast by Age 9 or 10, she
is now a adolescent(young lady), there no longer children! She can
get married and produce children if she wanted to this is un
disputable fact of Science! If she Produces Children she is now
considered a youngMother!
Again this case is not common as girls tend to develop at about 12-
13 but there are cases where girls do develop sometimes much
younger which is scientificFA C T as stated in the Science health

web-site(above) where girls can have normal development with
breast, and having menses by age 9 or 10 again completely
consistent with the age of Aisha!

For those that claim female's of that age can not have
children. Even though Aisa (ra) prophet wife had no
children!

Here is21st century Modern day Proof: Photo of young Thailand Mother who is a developed women at AGE 9 years old and givesBirth to a healthy baby! visit to see Picture and News Article:http ://w w w.answ ering- christianity.com/tha
i_girl.htm -Breaking NEWS Britain’s youngest mum Teresa Middleton pregnant by Age 11!-See her Picture: http://www.bintulu.o
rg/news/2010/06/01/b
ritains-youngest- mum-teresa-middleton
.php "Worth mentioning Aisha(r.a) never got pregnant nor had any children." Point 3: Again the Anti-Islam claims about Aisha being a child has now beendebunked and proven false, we have clearly
shown whatdist inguishe s achi ld from a youngteen according
to science. Aisha's transition from a child to a teen happened

''THIS IS THE BEST PART'' WESTERN AND CHRISTIAN HYPOCRISY EXPOSED AGE OF CONSENT WAS 7-10 YEARS OLD!!! It amazes me how these hate filled anti-islamist’s judge
Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) with one standard and there own
laws and forefathers with another standard enjoy game over to
your slandering attempts with the following:

*Byzantine emperors !! Age of Consent 8 years old! Child brides as young aseight were common among the Byzantine emperors
and nobility! According to William of Tyre, Agnes was (only eight)
on her arrival at Constantinople, while Alexius was thirteen; in fact
Alexius was born on 14 September11 6 9. Child brides, whether
Byzantines or foreign princesses, were the norm rather than the
exception, especially from the late twelfth century.

Proof:http://www.rom
an-emperors.org/aggi
efran.htm *The ages from 10 to 13 were typically acceptable during the MID 19th Century IN WESTERN COUNTRIES. It's called the age of consent. The Proof: reference for this statement is from the book "The Age of Consent: Young People, Sexuality and Citizenship" by Matthew Waites.
*Campaign to Raise the Legal Age of Consent, 1885-1914 :
American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of
most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve,
and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven.

Step 9: through the process of what is called Puberty, an undisputable FACT of Science. Proof:http://womhist
.alexanderstreet.com
/teacher/aoc.htm Recent History: IN CHRISTIAN COUNTRIES!!!
The Following evidence is provided from: California Marriage
Law California Law Review, 1919

*CaliforniaU .S.A In1859 Age of consent 7 years old!! and above! Proof: See ref: And See ref: at web-site: http://www.sfgenealo
gy.com/sf/history/hg
oe49.htm *CaliforniaU .S.A In1889 Age of consent 10 years old!! was
the first state to change the age of consent to 14, which it did in
(1889). After California, other US states joined in and raised the
age of consent too.
(http://www.ageofcon
sent.com/comments/nu
mberone.htm)

Present day!!! *Massachusetts U.S.A 12 ye years old! with parental consent.
(http://www.ageofcon
sent.com/comments/nu
mberone.htm)
*Spain age of consent 12 years old! (click on Spain) on
link(http://www.ageo
fconsent.com/ageofco
nsent.htm)
*New Hampshire U.S.A 2008:13 for females source:
(http://en.wikipedia
.org/wiki/Marriageab
le_age)
*New Mexico Age consent 13 years old!
(http://www.ageofcon
sent.com/comments/nu
mberone.htm)
*Japan age of consent 13 years old! (click on Japan) on link
(http://www.ageofcon
sent.com/ageofconsen
t.htm)

Visit to see: A photo of 12 year old RomanianChri stian getting marriedP roof: http://www.animal-cr
uelty.com/gypsy_girl
.htm Notice everyone!! The west only 100-200 years ago in the age of science and technology and modernization accepted low ages, you
cant hide these facts or neglect them, they weren’t living in cave
man time they had suits on , OFFICE PEOPLE! People who had
education a system of laws whom made these decisions

Californian Government who legislated and Californian Society who is made up ofChrist ians accepted Age of consent marriage at justSEVEN toTEN years old, for 30 years!! between the period 1859and 1889. So Islam age of consent minimum of 9 YEARS old is 2 years HIGHER then the Christian age of consent of just 7! Above evidence isPR OOF that even inWESTERN CHRISTIAN Cultures marrying your daughters as Young! as 7,8,9,10,11,12,13 years old was the NORM practice amongst Christians in America and through out the WORLD!! Which clearly nowDESTR OY S andDEBUNKS theC HR ISTIAN and ATHEISTIC attempt to SLANDER the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) for marrying a adolescent at 9 year old ''ALLAHU AKBAR'' ALLAH IS THE GREATEST! So in reality if the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) was living in
California America between the years 1859-1889, his marriage was
certainly accepted andconsi stent with American government and
society. But since the age of consent was raised many years later
according to personal opinion of what the age of marriage should
be, this makes the Prophet a Pedophile? This is clear proof of
unfairness and hypocrisy, for judgeing the Prophet Muhammed for
the standard of living today! and not judging the Prophet upon
what was accepted amoungst christians, jews and atheists through
outHIS TORY ! If you look at age of marriage (consent) through
out the world in present time, it varies dramatically some parts
of the world Age consent in present day is at12 and some parts at

14 some parts 16 some at 18 so who is right? who decides? what will be next25? this is proof that everyone has a personal opinion
and according to what they think is right is what they set the
margin at. And who ever doesn’t agree to there age of consent laws
then this makes them Pedophiles? this is quietabsurd! How do we
not know that these same people who legislated the consent AGE
will one day bring it down again? Actually its interesting enough

1- If the marriage was so wrong, then why didn’tA isha’s mother object to the marriage? Instead she happily gave Aisha for marriage, and prepared her for the marriage.
2- Why didn’t Abu bakr the father of Aisha object to the
marriage? If it was so wrong you would expect the father to have
not allowed such a marriage to take place.
3- Why did the women who were present with Aisha when she
was about to be given to the prophet for marriage wished her luck
and werehappy for her. If the marriage was wrong, the women
present would have been sad, and they would not have been happy
for Aisha, rather what we see is that they were happy for Aisha and
had no problems with this marriage whatsoever.
4- Are we supposed to assume that Abu Bakr, and Aisha’s

Step 10: that the western culture accept teens having sex at 13 to 16 with
there boyfriends this is o.k but if the couples decide to get married
it's defamed and given a big No! No! normally by christian parents
who love breaking bible commandments such as ''they shall not
fornicate, nor commit adultery'' but hey! that goes out the window!
and this is why the western christian world is suffering from things
like abortions, sexually transmitted diseases due to fornication

, and children being born out of wedlock they don’t know who there mothers nor who there fathers are because the teens are
encouraged to fornicate before marriage and sleep around with as
much men and not to think about the consequences . This is why
ISLAM came to protect the dignity, chastity health and honor of
women and men, it encourages that you should get married early to
protect yourself against the harmful things as stated above, to
minimize things like damage, confusion and depression that
sexually active teens will face if they engage in sex before
marriage.

mother, and the women present with Aisha are all pedophiles and
child molesters? Indeed such a conclusion would be veryignorant,
and arrogant.
5- Why didn’t any of the prophet’s enemies use this against the
prophet Muhammad? If the marriage was so wrong, then you
would expect to find his enemies to be the first ones to start using
this against him, instead what we find is that his enemies NEVER
EVEN ONCE brought this marriage up in a negative way against
him.
6- In fact why didn’t any of the Arabs around the Hijazi area
object or talk against thismarriage? It was not only the pagan
Arabs in Hijaz who didn’t object to this marriage, but the
surrounding Arabs didn’t object to it neither!
7- Are we to assume that ALL theseA rabs were pedophiles and
child molesters? Indeed such a conclusion would make the one
making this conclusion a very stupid man, because only a very
stupid arrogant man would accuse an entire race of being child
molesters and pedophiles.
8- Why is there not aSINGLE hadith from Aisha showing her
being displeased of the marriage? Why is there not one hadith from
Aisha showing her to be like a victim, instead when you look at
Aisha you find no symptoms of a victim. She became a great
leader for Islam, a great scholar for Islam who would teach about
Islam to many men. Does this seem to be the symptoms of
someone who has been abused?
9- If Aisha was indeed a victim and so on, then why did she

love the prophet Muhammad(pbuh) so much, and would sometimes get jealous around him because she loved him so
much, does this sound like someone who is a victim?
10- From all the hadith literature we have, we can confidently say
that ifAisha was alive today, that she would distance herself from
these Christians making these sick arguments, and that she would
want nothing to do with these people, this in itself speaks volumes
since these people making this sick argument are supposed to be
the good guys who are trying to be helpful.

It has been proved with solid evidences that the marriage of the
Prophet to Ayesha is Biblically validated, scientifically correct, and
even historically correct amongst Christians! History shows that
the age of marriage was low, in olden times women married when
they reached puberty or even earlier. Even in USA, a century ago,
age of consent was low, 7 in Delaware, even today in some
countries like Mexico and Philippines, age of consent is as low as
12. It should not be too astonishing to find therefore that Ayesha
was mature enough, as the medical evidences states that puberty
can occur at the age of 9. Ayesha played a vital role for Islam. The
Prophet does not fulfill the characteristics of a pedophile. Let us
not forget that the Prophet waited 3 years before the marriage with
Ayesha was consummated and that all his other wives were older
than 16. It is quite hypocritical of Christian Missionaries to
criticize the marriage of Ayesha when Mary, who according to
Catholic Encyclopedia was between 12 and 14, and yet married
Joseph who was 90 years old!
Hence all these points made here are enough to refute the Anti-
Islamic’s entire position, and they themselves know this. I could
show more points, showing that the age of marriage in the past
used to be at a very young age, something history agrees with, but
these Anti-Islamic’s are so hate filled and arrogant they will say all
of history is wrong but only today in our modern world we are
right. Yet if we look at our modern world, we are adisgrace! and
the past is much better than us, look at us today in the modern
world. We have the greatest amount of Adultery and
fornication. we have the greatest amount of rape, we
have greatest amount of women being abused and beaten by there
partners and husbands, we have greatest amount of alcohol
and drug abuse Suicide at alarming levels, we have
licensed brothels with 50,000 prostitute's walking the streets,

i would rather my children read the Quraan than the current Bebo, face book, ponographic stuff available

In this country we have the highest teenage pregnancy rate and divorce rate in Europe.

No thanks but the secular way of life does not appeal to me.

Crikey - not sure that you have done much to improve the image of muslims but heh, good try. What I can't work is why, if the west is such a den of sin, so many muslims want to make their home here. Don't tell me that you are doing so for our own good and that you hope to convert us. Roll eyes, ironic laugh and groan.

Not a lot in there about the mental abilities of a nine year old is there?
If you actually believe in and support all of that why not go and reside somewhere where it is normal life and leave us to our sin?

albion wrote:
Not a lot in there about the mental abilities of a nine year old is there? If you actually believe in and support all of that why not go and reside somewhere where it is normal life and leave us to our sin?

Do I not have the right be proud to be Muslim and British?

Nowhere does it say in the constitution of this great country of ours that you are not allowed to practice your faith and not be British

I pay my taxes, know the language just as well as you do, abide by the law, work to feed my family and proudly practice my muslim faith.

Juding by the recent election results, most of the citizens of this great country don't have a problem with that either - bar the Party you align yourselves with.

Sorry mate, but proud to be a British Muslim and here to stay.

bluecorner100 wrote:

albion wrote:
Not a lot in there about the mental abilities of a nine year old is there? If you actually believe in and support all of that why not go and reside somewhere where it is normal life and leave us to our sin?

Do I not have the right be proud to be Muslim and British?

Nowhere does it say in the constitution of this great country of ours that you are not allowed to practice your faith and not be British

I pay my taxes, know the language just as well as you do, abide by the law, work to feed my family and proudly practice my muslim faith.

Juding by the recent election results, most of the citizens of this great country don't have a problem with that either - bar the Party you align yourselves with.

Sorry mate, but proud to be a British Muslim and here to stay.

i have not aligned myself to any party and as the one I think you are referring to didnt stand in my area either locally or nationally and to my knowledge never has I couldnt vote for it even if that was my preference.
As for being proud to be British and Muslim, which comes first? because the day might well come when the conflict between the two means supporting one side or another.

albion wrote:

bluecorner100 wrote:

albion wrote: Not a lot in there about the mental abilities of a nine year old is there? If you actually believe in and support all of that why not go and reside somewhere where it is normal life and leave us to our sin?

Do I not have the right be proud to be Muslim and British? Nowhere does it say in the constitution of this great country of ours that you are not allowed to practice your faith and not be British I pay my taxes, know the language just as well as you do, abide by the law, work to feed my family and proudly practice my muslim faith. Juding by the recent election results, most of the citizens of this great country don't have a problem with that either - bar the Party you align yourselves with. Sorry mate, but proud to be a British Muslim and here to stay.

i have not aligned myself to any party and as the one I think you are referring to didnt stand in my area either locally or nationally and to my knowledge never has I couldnt vote for it even if that was my preference. As for being proud to be British and Muslim, which comes first? because the day might well come when the conflict between the two means supporting one side or another.

No mate - more like it being a conflict you would like to create.

Like I said earlier, there is no conflict between Islamic law and British law. That is why the majority of Muslims don't want a Shariah state in this country as we are allowed to practice our faith as well as any of the Islamic countries.

Also, ask a parent with two or more children which one they would choose if they had to lose one?
That might answer you Q about choosing Islam or Britain

Finally albion, please try wearing a different pair of glasses sometimes, the white tinted ones are getting a bit boring.

Gotta go - don't have all day like you adding inflammatory comments that serve no purpose

Bluecorner - I can appreciate that you are short of time after all the effort you put in to post all that jibberish earlier - or was that your employer's time? ;)

bluecorner100 wrote:

albion wrote:

bluecorner100 wrote:

albion wrote: Not a lot in there about the mental abilities of a nine year old is there? If you actually believe in and support all of that why not go and reside somewhere where it is normal life and leave us to our sin?

Do I not have the right be proud to be Muslim and British? Nowhere does it say in the constitution of this great country of ours that you are not allowed to practice your faith and not be British I pay my taxes, know the language just as well as you do, abide by the law, work to feed my family and proudly practice my muslim faith. Juding by the recent election results, most of the citizens of this great country don't have a problem with that either - bar the Party you align yourselves with. Sorry mate, but proud to be a British Muslim and here to stay.

i have not aligned myself to any party and as the one I think you are referring to didnt stand in my area either locally or nationally and to my knowledge never has I couldnt vote for it even if that was my preference. As for being proud to be British and Muslim, which comes first? because the day might well come when the conflict between the two means supporting one side or another.

No mate - more like it being a conflict you would like to create.

Like I said earlier, there is no conflict between Islamic law and British law. That is why the majority of Muslims don't want a Shariah state in this country as we are allowed to practice our faith as well as any of the Islamic countries.

Also, ask a parent with two or more children which one they would choose if they had to lose one?
That might answer you Q about choosing Islam or Britain

Finally albion, please try wearing a different pair of glasses sometimes, the white tinted ones are getting a bit boring.

Gotta go - don't have all day like you adding inflammatory comments that serve no purpose

"Like I said earlier, there is no conflict between Islamic law and British law. That is why the majority of Muslims don't want a Shariah state in this country as we are allowed to practice our faith as well as any of the Islamic countries."
But that will never be enough for some.

"No mate - more like it being a conflict you would like to create."
There are plenty of so called British Muslims doing military training in Pakistan and/or fighting against British troops.

"Gotta go - don't have all day like you adding inflammatory comments that serve no purpose"
The quotes from the "good" book were inflammatory enough.

albion wrote:

turbodiesel wrote: at least the mosques are doing something unlike the catholic church brushing abuse under the carpet. Also currently the city has got bad national press again, i dont think the crossbow cannibal is a muslim?

Where his victims halal?

ur mum :D

thecitygent wrote:
Bluecorner - I can appreciate that you are short of time after all the effort you put in to post all that jibberish earlier - or was that your employer's time? ;)

depends wheter u class ur mother as his employer ;) what i find funny is the "freedom of speach" that comes out of people's mouth's once behind a computer screen

Work on the grammar and it might be possible to comprehend what you are struggling to communicate.

thecitygent wrote:
Work on the grammar and it might be possible to comprehend what you are struggling to communicate.

It still wouldnt be any more palatable.

bradistan wrote:

thecitygent wrote: Bluecorner - I can appreciate that you are short of time after all the effort you put in to post all that jibberish earlier - or was that your employer's time? ;)

depends wheter u class ur mother as his employer ;) what i find funny is the "freedom of speach" that comes out of people's mouth's once behind a computer screen

So you find it funny that people come out with freedom of speach when behind a computer screen??? Then you come out with immature comments about peoples mum's!!!


Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

Of course, God does not exist, or at least I haven't yet seen the prooof.
*
So, personally, I prefer the teachings of the Flying Spaghetti Monster which can be distilled down to "Play nicely boys and girls".