Fire Brigades’ Union urges people in Bradford to speak out over cuts (From Bradford Telegraph and Argus)

These cuts must be opposed - removing vital infrastructure is irreversible. And let me make it clear - last year the authority contacted 80 groups across the entirety of west yorkshire - there are HUNDREDS of groups in Bradford alone. Consultation - they do no tknow the meaning of the word.
Learn the truth about these cuts on

http://www.firecutsc
ostlives.blogspot.co
.uk/

Isn't real reason for funding crisis the black hole in staff pension scheme?

These cuts will save money, not lives.

Please sign the online petition to stop the closures at:

http://epetition.bra
dford.public-i.tv/ep
etition_core/communi
ty/petition/2013

Thank you.

webess wrote:
Isn't real reason for funding crisis the black hole in staff pension scheme?

Are you saying the Fire Service workers don't deserve a generous pension? I hope you'll remember saying that when your house burns down!

A Casual Observer wrote:

webess wrote:
Isn't real reason for funding crisis the black hole in staff pension scheme?

Are you saying the Fire Service workers don't deserve a generous pension? I hope you'll remember saying that when your house burns down!

If that happened you would either be dead or in something of a mess, I doubt very much whether pensions would spring to mind.
The pensions are deserved, they are also expensive if we believe what we are told about them.

A Casual Observer wrote:

webess wrote:
Isn't real reason for funding crisis the black hole in staff pension scheme?

Are you saying the Fire Service workers don't deserve a generous pension? I hope you'll remember saying that when your house burns down!

That's a dumb argument that sounds like it's come straight from a school playground.

In its present form it is not affordable.
No cuts are welcome but in current circumstances they are necessary,

It's not mentioned in the article (wouldn't suit the union's argument) but I assume that some people will actually have a quicker response time if they're lucky enough to live near the new station?

Given the mess they made of Mr b's takeaway on fire on Sunday I would say they might be better shutting up.
A small fire in a range ended up destroying the building.
What on earth were they playing around at ? watching it burn ?

webess wrote:

A Casual Observer wrote:

webess wrote:
Isn't real reason for funding crisis the black hole in staff pension scheme?

Are you saying the Fire Service workers don't deserve a generous pension? I hope you'll remember saying that when your house burns down!

That's a dumb argument that sounds like it's come straight from a school playground.

Why? Because it's true and you can't handle the truth? I'll say it again, when your home catches fire with your children trapped inside, remember your petty mean-minded attitude toward the workers of the Fire Rescue Service.

angry bradfordian wrote:
It's not mentioned in the article (wouldn't suit the union's argument) but I assume that some people will actually have a quicker response time if they're lucky enough to live near the new station?

OK fine, let's have a Fire Station in every area.

BertSanders wrote:
In its present form it is not affordable.
No cuts are welcome but in current circumstances they are necessary,

None of the cuts are necessary. The evil Tory bar-stewards have successfully convinced you that they are.

vax2002 wrote:
Given the mess they made of Mr b's takeaway on fire on Sunday I would say they might be better shutting up.
A small fire in a range ended up destroying the building.
What on earth were they playing around at ? watching it burn ?

They might well do that in future, and who could blame them?

A Casual Observer wrote:

BertSanders wrote:
In its present form it is not affordable.
No cuts are welcome but in current circumstances they are necessary,

None of the cuts are necessary. The evil Tory bar-stewards have successfully convinced you that they are.

OK - how should the costs be met ?
I am totally convinced we are in a mess and economies must be made.

BertSanders wrote:

A Casual Observer wrote:

BertSanders wrote:
In its present form it is not affordable.
No cuts are welcome but in current circumstances they are necessary,

None of the cuts are necessary. The evil Tory bar-stewards have successfully convinced you that they are.

OK - how should the costs be met ?
I am totally convinced we are in a mess and economies must be made.

There is currently a conservative estimate of £13 Trillion owed in unpaid taxes by the rich.

WE NEED A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO FIGHT AGAINST THIS EVIL VINDICTIVE GOVERNMENT AND THE SO-CALLED 'AUSTERITY MEASURES' THEY SEEK TO IMPOSE UPON US.

DOWN TOOLS, TAKE TO THE STREETS IN PROTEST AND GET THEM OUT BEFORE THEY RUIN THIS COUNTRY FOR EVER.

We, the ordinary people, are expected to do without a fully functioning Fire Service, as well as other services such as Police, Libraries, swimming baths, essential council services, etc. so that the likes of Bob Diamond and Lord Ashcroft can cling to their ill-gotten gains. And some of you muppets seem quite prepared to accept that!

GET OUT ON STRIKE ! ! !

A Casual Observer wrote:

webess wrote:

A Casual Observer wrote:

webess wrote:
Isn't real reason for funding crisis the black hole in staff pension scheme?

Are you saying the Fire Service workers don't deserve a generous pension? I hope you'll remember saying that when your house burns down!

That's a dumb argument that sounds like it's come straight from a school playground.

Why? Because it's true and you can't handle the truth? I'll say it again, when your home catches fire with your children trapped inside, remember your petty mean-minded attitude toward the workers of the Fire Rescue Service.

Firstly the firefighters where I live are retained so your "argument" falls at the first hurdle.
It's been known for 20 plus years that the firefighters pensions were going to blow a hole in the operational fire service - most brigades are now paying out more pensioners than staff.
Only the canary in the mine though, eventually cost of pensions will cripple all public services...

A Casual Observer wrote:
WE NEED A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO FIGHT AGAINST THIS EVIL VINDICTIVE GOVERNMENT AND THE SO-CALLED 'AUSTERITY MEASURES' THEY SEEK TO IMPOSE UPON US.

DOWN TOOLS, TAKE TO THE STREETS IN PROTEST AND GET THEM OUT BEFORE THEY RUIN THIS COUNTRY FOR EVER.

That should help a lot. It you know there are hidden treasures that should be recovered - you should have informed Gordon Brown - he did not make too much effort. It has not happened in the last two years. Fini - I rest my case.

A Casual Observer wrote:

BertSanders wrote:

A Casual Observer wrote:

BertSanders wrote:
In its present form it is not affordable.
No cuts are welcome but in current circumstances they are necessary,

None of the cuts are necessary. The evil Tory bar-stewards have successfully convinced you that they are.

OK - how should the costs be met ?
I am totally convinced we are in a mess and economies must be made.

There is currently a conservative estimate of £13 Trillion owed in unpaid taxes by the rich.

Typical leftist mumbo jumbo - £13 Trillion, that's ten times the UK's GDP.

The top 10% of people are already paying half the tax, we'd be screwed up if they packed up and left the country - as the country found under the Labour govt in the 70's.

So tell me Mr Fire Brigades Union where were you when Gordon Brown and Tony Blair were asset stripping the private sector taxpayer.? Where were you when the people who actually provide the money for Public Servants like yourself were being taxed the highest ever in the history of this country?.And where was YOUR voice when Gordon Brown and Edward Balls ruined the economy?

YOU were silent.
Crawl back under your rock and hide like you did when the Neo SS were in power.

Why the hate and vitriol towards the fire-fighters? They are not responsible for this economic catastrophe..... They have paid amongst the highest contributions of public OR private sector workers for their pensions. The pension scheme set up for fire-fighters allowed the contributions to be squandered on government projects rather than be invested. Now that there is a shortfall, why blame the fire-fighters?

The closure of any fire station resulting in greater attendance times for crews to incidents will ABSOLUTELY result in a greater risk to life!

In depth research has been conducted in the past that links greater attendance times to an increased number of fire fatalities. However the last government decided that fire response times should not be based upon this research as it would not allow for "modernisation of the service" ......saving money to you and me.

The old adage of "you get what you pay for" applies here. If you are happy for a reduced fire cover and a longer wait for a fire engine, then allow the cuts to take place.

I am blaming the Unions. And THEY are the ones at fault,

So the Unions are responsible for the current economic situation?

cobblers1288 wrote:
Why the hate and vitriol towards the fire-fighters? They are not responsible for this economic catastrophe..... They have paid amongst the highest contributions of public OR private sector workers for their pensions. The pension scheme set up for fire-fighters allowed the contributions to be squandered on government projects rather than be invested. Now that there is a shortfall, why blame the fire-fighters?

The closure of any fire station resulting in greater attendance times for crews to incidents will ABSOLUTELY result in a greater risk to life!

In depth research has been conducted in the past that links greater attendance times to an increased number of fire fatalities. However the last government decided that fire response times should not be based upon this research as it would not allow for "modernisation of the service" ......saving money to you and me.

The old adage of "you get what you pay for" applies here. If you are happy for a reduced fire cover and a longer wait for a fire engine, then allow the cuts to take place.

There's no vitriol or hatred of firefighters. It's just the case that some of recognise the parlous state of the economy and can see past the FBU scaremongering line of "pay up or you'll burn to death". North Yorkshire has only 2 full time stations across the whole county and they manage to get by.

cobblers1288 wrote:
So the Unions are responsible for the current economic situation?

The Lapdog of the Unions is responsible for **** near bankrupting this country. I have no love for the the Coalition government but I recognise that they are better than the alternative.And at least the Coalition has raised Personal Allowances. Labour just taxed us at the bottom to give the middle and high earners tax breaks. Whose voices were silent? The Public Servant Unions voices were. I'm alright Jack.

It is easy to quote scaremongering Unions when they fight against closure of services, but in this case they are actually correct. There IS good evidence to prove their claim that greater response times result in greater loss.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out that if a fire engine takes longer to arrive at your fire that the fire will be more progressed. If an ambulance takes longer to arrive at the scene of an accident then the patient will be in a worse state.

Society will have to decide, allow the cuts and take a chance that you will never have a fire or accident, or fight the cuts and maintain the current position.

I'd rather have a fire-fighter or a paramedic than a banker..... that's for sure!

cobblers1288 wrote:
So the Unions are responsible for the current economic situation?

To a large extent yes, or to be more precise the public sector unions are to at least partly to blame. Problems existed long prior to 2008.

Root cause of present crisis is that public spending has been way too high. The public sector unions (including FBU) exist to benefit their members not the public.

Most of the excessive public spending happened under Labour, and the Labour party was and still is financed largely by the public sector unions.

cobblers1288 wrote:
It is easy to quote scaremongering Unions when they fight against closure of services, but in this case they are actually correct. There IS good evidence to prove their claim that greater response times result in greater loss.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out that if a fire engine takes longer to arrive at your fire that the fire will be more progressed. If an ambulance takes longer to arrive at the scene of an accident then the patient will be in a worse state.

Society will have to decide, allow the cuts and take a chance that you will never have a fire or accident, or fight the cuts and maintain the current position.

I'd rather have a fire-fighter or a paramedic than a banker..... that's for sure!

Very true and pretty obvious stuff, but have you ever looked at..

(1) What are your chances of actually being in a fire? About half a million people die every year in the UK, less than five hundred of these are in fires.

(2) How many genuine calls do you think these affected stations actually receive?

Webess,

You are correct, the Public sector unions serve their members just as private sector unions serve theirs. That is the whole point of representation in the workplace.

Public representation is, I believe the remit of Members of Parliament and local Councillors....

Unions are criticised for campaigning about issues not directly connected with their remit. They are also criticised for NOT campaigning.... sometimes you can't win?

The Labour party is funded largely by union money (but not the FBU), just as the Conservatives are mainly financed by big business.

Public spending may have been too high in the past, but are you really stating that the banking crisis and subsequent bailouts had nothing to do with the current crisis?

Webess,

The chances of being in a fire are determined by many factors. Lifestyles, financial situations, Health issues and many others.

However, there is always the ability for a fire to occur in the most unexpected places at the most unexpected times (I bet Windsor Castle had a good fire alarm system). This is something that the most sophisticated computer mapping programmes cannot predict.

You unfortunately also forget that the role of the Modern Fire Service save more lives at Road Traffic Collisions and rescues than fires.

How many genuine calls? I don't know. If they only attend one call that saves the life or lives of someone then that is worth it. The current cost of a road death is estimated at over 1 million pounds

cobblers1288 wrote:
Webess,

You are correct, the Public sector unions serve their members just as private sector unions serve theirs. That is the whole point of representation in the workplace.

Public representation is, I believe the remit of Members of Parliament and local Councillors....

Unions are criticised for campaigning about issues not directly connected with their remit. They are also criticised for NOT campaigning.... sometimes you can't win?

The Labour party is funded largely by union money (but not the FBU), just as the Conservatives are mainly financed by big business.

Public spending may have been too high in the past, but are you really stating that the banking crisis and subsequent bailouts had nothing to do with the current crisis?

Going a bit off topic. But in a nutshell the problem of excessive state spending has been brewing for decades. This got worse from the mid 1990's when Gordon Brown let rip with public spending. He did this largely of the back of a credit boom - in 2008 the music stopped. The crash was inevitable.

We're now in new territory and the cuts haven't really even started yet. Even the planned cuts are nothing like what's needed. Fasten your seatbelts for something like a 40% cut in public spending, the FBU and all friends won't be able to stop it..

webess wrote:
Isn't real reason for funding crisis the black hole in staff pension scheme?

Actually the fire service pension pot is currently running at a profit. Firefighters pay in £250 pounds per months for 30 years + . Now ask yourself do i put as much in my pension .

starvan wrote:

webess wrote:
Isn't real reason for funding crisis the black hole in staff pension scheme?

Actually the fire service pension pot is currently running at a profit. Firefighters pay in £250 pounds per months for 30 years + . Now ask yourself do i put as much in my pension .

Percentage wise, It's on a par with most occupational pensions.
You might also have pointed out that the service contributes more than double that amount.
Not that I begrudge it, I have a similar pension myself.

webess wrote:

cobblers1288 wrote:
Webess,

You are correct, the Public sector unions serve their members just as private sector unions serve theirs. That is the whole point of representation in the workplace.

Public representation is, I believe the remit of Members of Parliament and local Councillors....

Unions are criticised for campaigning about issues not directly connected with their remit. They are also criticised for NOT campaigning.... sometimes you can't win?

The Labour party is funded largely by union money (but not the FBU), just as the Conservatives are mainly financed by big business.

Public spending may have been too high in the past, but are you really stating that the banking crisis and subsequent bailouts had nothing to do with the current crisis?

Going a bit off topic. But in a nutshell the problem of excessive state spending has been brewing for decades. This got worse from the mid 1990's when Gordon Brown let rip with public spending. He did this largely of the back of a credit boom - in 2008 the music stopped. The crash was inevitable.

We're now in new territory and the cuts haven't really even started yet. Even the planned cuts are nothing like what's needed. Fasten your seatbelts for something like a 40% cut in public spending, the FBU and all friends won't be able to stop it..

The crash was nothing to do with Gordon Brown or public spending, it was caused by the American mortgage market. The cuts we are experiencing in UK now are entirely unnecessary and purely vindictive, and are the result of nothing but the Tories ideological drive to dismantle our State.

cobblers1288 wrote:
It is easy to quote scaremongering Unions when they fight against closure of services, but in this case they are actually correct. There IS good evidence to prove their claim that greater response times result in greater loss.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out that if a fire engine takes longer to arrive at your fire that the fire will be more progressed. If an ambulance takes longer to arrive at the scene of an accident then the patient will be in a worse state.

Society will have to decide, allow the cuts and take a chance that you will never have a fire or accident, or fight the cuts and maintain the current position.

I'd rather have a fire-fighter or a paramedic than a banker..... that's for sure!

I wouldn't pee on a Banker if he was on fire!

Brer fox wrote:
I am blaming the Unions. And THEY are the ones at fault,

If you only had a brain...

webess wrote:

A Casual Observer wrote:

BertSanders wrote:

A Casual Observer wrote:

BertSanders wrote:
In its present form it is not affordable.
No cuts are welcome but in current circumstances they are necessary,

None of the cuts are necessary. The evil Tory bar-stewards have successfully convinced you that they are.

OK - how should the costs be met ?
I am totally convinced we are in a mess and economies must be made.

There is currently a conservative estimate of £13 Trillion owed in unpaid taxes by the rich.

Typical leftist mumbo jumbo - £13 Trillion, that's ten times the UK's GDP.

The top 10% of people are already paying half the tax, we'd be screwed up if they packed up and left the country - as the country found under the Labour govt in the 70's.

Oh "leftist mumbo jumbo" is it? Well tell that to James Henry, former chief economist at consultancy McKinsey and an expert on tax havens, who has compiled the most detailed estimates yet of the size of the offshore economy in a new report:

http://www.guardian.
co.uk/business/2012/
jul/21/global-elite-
tax-offshore-economy

Brer fox wrote:
So tell me Mr Fire Brigades Union where were you when Gordon Brown and Tony Blair were asset stripping the private sector taxpayer.? Where were you when the people who actually provide the money for Public Servants like yourself were being taxed the highest ever in the history of this country?.And where was YOUR voice when Gordon Brown and Edward Balls ruined the economy?

YOU were silent.
Crawl back under your rock and hide like you did when the Neo SS were in power.

Gordon Brown and Edward Balls ruined the economy? That's news to me! You're a complete idiot.

webess wrote:

A Casual Observer wrote:

webess wrote:

A Casual Observer wrote:

webess wrote:
Isn't real reason for funding crisis the black hole in staff pension scheme?

Are you saying the Fire Service workers don't deserve a generous pension? I hope you'll remember saying that when your house burns down!

That's a dumb argument that sounds like it's come straight from a school playground.

Why? Because it's true and you can't handle the truth? I'll say it again, when your home catches fire with your children trapped inside, remember your petty mean-minded attitude toward the workers of the Fire Rescue Service.

Firstly the firefighters where I live are retained so your "argument" falls at the first hurdle.
It's been known for 20 plus years that the firefighters pensions were going to blow a hole in the operational fire service - most brigades are now paying out more pensioners than staff.
Only the canary in the mine though, eventually cost of pensions will cripple all public services...

The firefighters where you live may well be retained (bully for you), but that doesn't prevent your house from catching fire, and with your attitude it would be Karma if it did!

A Casual Observer wrote:

Brer fox wrote: So tell me Mr Fire Brigades Union where were you when Gordon Brown and Tony Blair were asset stripping the private sector taxpayer.? Where were you when the people who actually provide the money for Public Servants like yourself were being taxed the highest ever in the history of this country?.And where was YOUR voice when Gordon Brown and Edward Balls ruined the economy? YOU were silent. Crawl back under your rock and hide like you did when the Neo SS were in power.

Gordon Brown and Edward Balls ruined the economy? That's news to me! You're a complete idiot.

If it's news to you I suggest you do a little research to reveal the (healthy) state of the economy and public borrowing in 1997, compared to when Blair made one of his biggest mistakes of letting the sub-normal Brown, with the idiot Balls in his earhole, loose on the public piggy bank.

A Casual Observer wrote:

Brer fox wrote: I am blaming the Unions. And THEY are the ones at fault,

If you only had a brain...

True, you can't blame the unions. They're only doing what's in their own selfish best interests, like any other partisan group. It's the fault of the government for not controlling their excesses. Of course that couldn't happen at all during the period 1997-2010 when the TUC's puppet Labour government was in "power" could it? Come back George Orwell.