Thousands join public sector strike across Bradford district (From Bradford Telegraph and Argus)

easy - if your not happy leave and get another job in the "real world"

There was a strike yesterday?
Can't say I even noticed.

MisterBD wrote:
easy - if your not happy leave and get another job in the "real world"

I cannot agree with you more, these strikers should hang their heads in shame. Holding the country to ransom, whilst the cupboard is already bare for the rest of us.
Strikers, GET REAL!

What is the real objection of people who are criticising these workers standing up for their rights?
Seems to me that mentality is that "my pensions knackered so yours should be too".
Any criticism should be directed squarely at the people who have caused the mess in the first place; greedy private sector financial services companies and politicians.

allinittogether wrote:
What is the real objection of people who are criticising these workers standing up for their rights?
Seems to me that mentality is that "my pensions knackered so yours should be too".
Any criticism should be directed squarely at the people who have caused the mess in the first place; greedy private sector financial services companies and politicians.

The objection is people in the private sector are paying for public sector workers' pensions that are far better than anything available in the private sector, even with the proposed changes.
The mentality is not 'my pensions knackered so yours should be' its 'why should I pay for your pension when it is considerably better than mine'.
Surely you agree with that?

Farsley Bantam wrote:

allinittogether wrote:
What is the real objection of people who are criticising these workers standing up for their rights?
Seems to me that mentality is that "my pensions knackered so yours should be too".
Any criticism should be directed squarely at the people who have caused the mess in the first place; greedy private sector financial services companies and politicians.

The objection is people in the private sector are paying for public sector workers' pensions that are far better than anything available in the private sector, even with the proposed changes.
The mentality is not 'my pensions knackered so yours should be' its 'why should I pay for your pension when it is considerably better than mine'.
Surely you agree with that?

Please explain how the private sector is paying for the public sectors pensions.....
And don't give me any of that rubbish that your paying taxes etc... cos so do the public sector aswell as 12% contributions in my particular job.

allinittogether wrote:
What is the real objection of people who are criticising these workers standing up for their rights? Seems to me that mentality is that "my pensions knackered so yours should be too". Any criticism should be directed squarely at the people who have caused the mess in the first place; greedy private sector financial services companies and politicians.

Was it the "greedy private sector financial services companies and politicians" who are causing people to live longer and therefore expect greater payments?

The first three comments here sound like an episode of Harry Enfield's sketch The Old Gits. There are hundreds like them everyday on the T&A website, characterised by the same astonishing level of sheer impotent rage. Collectively, the comments say 'our lives are bad, yours should be too' and 'you won't achieve anything anyway'. Such comments, taken together, always provide contradictory cliches, surely we're either 'holding the country to ransom' or we're not? If striking workers are so ineffective, why the boiling anger? I want to suggest that your anger arises from seeking private solutions ('if you don't like it get another job') to what are essentially public, collective problems. This never works. The 'clicktivists' on here, retching up this awful bile, are certainly not addressing any problems publicly, despite imagining they are, as part of a media discourse. I think unconsciously this is one source of their frustrated rage.

I find the comment about 'getting real' hilarious. I worked in one of the major banks responsible for the crash before returning to education. There was nothing 'real' about that 'world' when I worked there, and after 2008 we discovered just how 'unreal' their practices were. Their ramifications were very real though, and all three of the first comments, with their stifled furies, understand this, if only semi-consciously.

Private sector working conditions and pensions may indeed be poor, but billions of pounds of surplus value are locked away by single individuals. 'Getting real' doesn't seem to include the elite for these mouse mat enragés. There seems to be an assumption about what can 'reasonably' be demanded by the masses here, at the same time as those assumptions give tacit approval to a few people not having any ceiling whatsoever for their 'reasonable demands'. It is just idiocy. All of the excess wealth created by those few was taken from your work, do you really think they 'earned it' in a direct, simplistic way?

It is you who should hang your head in shame, for not thinking this through, for living in this highly reactive, single-cell organism way, for not engaging in public life in any productive way, for not educating yourselves about the true complexities at play here, and they are complex, striking workers know they aren't straightforward.

It would be bad enough if the assumption here was that there is a right to strike, as long as it doesn't actually change anything. That seems to be the usual assumption, that the right to strike but also the injustices which give rise to the necessity to exercise those rights must be preserved at all costs: protests, ravens at the Tower of London, economic disadvantage. Len McClusky recently proposed that civil disobedience and industrial action should be conducted to win and therefore change things for the many. That is clearly unacceptable. 'The workers must always lose or Britain just won't be Britain any more.' But what is being suggested here is worse than even those assumptions, what is being said here is that striking shouldn't happen, just blind, idiotic acceptance, with its corresponding blind fury, right at the historical moment when strikes are the most necessary. It isn't even engaged enough to be fascism, that, it seems to me, would be a notch up the food chain, at least there might be some ideas we could argue with.

PS - public sector workers pay for private sector services and goods, surely? Or do they live on an island entirely subsidised by private workers? I think not.

Mish29 wrote:

Farsley Bantam wrote:

allinittogether wrote:
What is the real objection of people who are criticising these workers standing up for their rights?
Seems to me that mentality is that "my pensions knackered so yours should be too".
Any criticism should be directed squarely at the people who have caused the mess in the first place; greedy private sector financial services companies and politicians.

The objection is people in the private sector are paying for public sector workers' pensions that are far better than anything available in the private sector, even with the proposed changes.
The mentality is not 'my pensions knackered so yours should be' its 'why should I pay for your pension when it is considerably better than mine'.
Surely you agree with that?

Please explain how the private sector is paying for the public sectors pensions.....
And don't give me any of that rubbish that your paying taxes etc... cos so do the public sector aswell as 12% contributions in my particular job.

Your employer is funded by the tax payer. Its a simple as that really.
A cleaner working for the government gets a decent pension contribution from her employer. A cleaner working in the private sector gets little or no contribution. You think its fair that the tax contributions of the private sector cleaner should provide his public sector counterpart a far better pension than he himself will receive, despite doing the same job?
If so then you show all the attributes of the selfish public sector employee who expects the private sector to pick up the tab for your nice pension.

Mish29 wrote:

Farsley Bantam wrote:

allinittogether wrote:
What is the real objection of people who are criticising these workers standing up for their rights?
Seems to me that mentality is that "my pensions knackered so yours should be too".
Any criticism should be directed squarely at the people who have caused the mess in the first place; greedy private sector financial services companies and politicians.

The objection is people in the private sector are paying for public sector workers' pensions that are far better than anything available in the private sector, even with the proposed changes.
The mentality is not 'my pensions knackered so yours should be' its 'why should I pay for your pension when it is considerably better than mine'.
Surely you agree with that?

Please explain how the private sector is paying for the public sectors pensions.....
And don't give me any of that rubbish that your paying taxes etc... cos so do the public sector aswell as 12% contributions in my particular job.

The 12% contributions come from a salary that's funded by taxes which are ultimately paid for by taxpayers from the private sector, public sector, the self employed and anybody who pays VAT i.e everybody!

On one hand it's unfair to take away any money that people have contributed to their pension pot to date but it's also unreasonable for pubic sector workers to expect the same conditions forever and expect everybody else to pay for it.

With these 2 polarised views, it's difficult to see how there's going to be a conclusion, especially when all the polls (including yesterday's T&A one) suggest a 50/50 split in support.

And so when they've withered not only public pay and pensions but also private sector worker rights, then lo, we can all look upon our good work and be well pleased. You people can spit all the bile you like, I'm a completely wipe-clean surface, and time will show the wiser, people can come back to this in ten years and ask just who it was who really allowed things to get considerably more terrible. But they won't, because this tiny page will be lost in a day. Those people standing out there at least had the commitment to take it to the street. You must be so very proud of yourselves. Do you think your kids will be proud of these ignorant, divisive comments if they stumble on them later? Well, they may know no better if you are bringing them up. No wonder many people from outside find our cartoon, boorish, stoical, moronic national character so highly amusing. I'm due back on planet earth shortly, time to 'get real.'

Steveaitch wrote:
And so when they've withered not only public pay and pensions but also private sector worker rights, then lo, we can all look upon our good work and be well pleased. You people can spit all the bile you like, I'm a completely wipe-clean surface, and time will show the wiser, people can come back to this in ten years and ask just who it was who really allowed things to get considerably more terrible. But they won't, because this tiny page will be lost in a day. Those people standing out there at least had the commitment to take it to the street. You must be so very proud of yourselves. Do you think your kids will be proud of these ignorant, divisive comments if they stumble on them later? Well, they may know no better if you are bringing them up. No wonder many people from outside find our cartoon, boorish, stoical, moronic national character so highly amusing. I'm due back on planet earth shortly, time to 'get real.'

Public sector strikes have gone on for many decades, to most individuals involved the only noticeable difference they will experience will be a reduction in their pay next month. The strike will achieve little or nothing as have the vast majority of others.

Steveaitch wrote:
And so when they've withered not only public pay and pensions but also private sector worker rights, then lo, we can all look upon our good work and be well pleased. You people can spit all the bile you like, I'm a completely wipe-clean surface, and time will show the wiser, people can come back to this in ten years and ask just who it was who really allowed things to get considerably more terrible. But they won't, because this tiny page will be lost in a day. Those people standing out there at least had the commitment to take it to the street. You must be so very proud of yourselves. Do you think your kids will be proud of these ignorant, divisive comments if they stumble on them later? Well, they may know no better if you are bringing them up. No wonder many people from outside find our cartoon, boorish, stoical, moronic national character so highly amusing. I'm due back on planet earth shortly, time to 'get real.'

Because I oppose these strikes and the reasons behind them I am spouting bile?
Strike all you want but you have no support or sympathy from me.
The money that is being put into these pensions could be far better spent on areas that benefit the population as a whole rather than just the individuals fortunate enough to have a public sector pension.
I would have no problem if my daughter was to read my comments. I'm sure she would agree that it is an enormous amount of tax payers money that is being needlessly wasted.
We are all living longer and these large pensions are not sustainable.
As for the rest of your comments, maybe go have a lie down and take your medication eh?

Well you're right, maybe I wasn't clear enough. The 'bile' is in your assumption that I have a pension at all, and that if I have one that it is in any sort of healthy shape. The bile is in the fact that you make any kind of qualitative or quantitative assumptions about my life at all. You don't know my work, the hours, or the pay. This is what the problem is on here, you just don't know, and if you go back to the longer post, this is what I am saying - this is all 'doxa' - unexamined opinion.

I think it's really quite amusing that you start to transfer the anger onto my shoulders - and yes there is some, why wouldn't there be at this moment in history - but what I see here is people stifled by their lack of power to change their lives actually directing that anger over the situation onto those who try. This is The Bile.

None of you are going to 'get it' it seems, that the one-dimensional public-private split you all do in your heads is just that, which is fine. If unions are so powerless then why the anger? All you are doing is creating prisons, mentally, about who is subservient and who does the ruling.

What I want, and what most trade union members want, active ones at least, is better conditions for everyone, and less inequality. We want this for both public sector and private sector workers. I include the people on here raging about the strikes in this desire, I genuinely want their lives to be better so they do not feel so angry and frustrated. We know that the gap between wealth is at an all-time historic high, we know this. The inequality between public and private sector workers is nothing - nothing - compared with that between the upper middle and upper class elite and the lower middle and working classes, I've seen the sociologist Mike Savage's figures. If we are to harmonise private and public sector why do you all assume we should be harmonised down? Billions of pounds are locked away by single individuals, which are not circulating our everyday lives. Why don't you private sector workers, in light of these facts, ask to be 'harmonised up' to the public sector?

A solution to all this may be about as likely as direct intervention from Mars, but I want to suggest here that the kind of sentiments I am offering are much more generous than the ones being shot out of cannons with little thought. This divisiveness actually creates the situation in which change is impossible. Yet on the street it is very different and the internet forum is partly to blame. It's so very easy to do this when the person is not in front of you, and every picket I've been on yields sympathetic private sector strollers, and last time, a notably private sector sandwich shop which provided public sector striking workers with bacon butties.

Steveaitch wrote:
Well you're right, maybe I wasn't clear enough. The 'bile' is in your assumption that I have a pension at all, and that if I have one that it is in any sort of healthy shape. The bile is in the fact that you make any kind of qualitative or quantitative assumptions about my life at all. You don't know my work, the hours, or the pay. This is what the problem is on here, you just don't know, and if you go back to the longer post, this is what I am saying - this is all 'doxa' - unexamined opinion.

I think it's really quite amusing that you start to transfer the anger onto my shoulders - and yes there is some, why wouldn't there be at this moment in history - but what I see here is people stifled by their lack of power to change their lives actually directing that anger over the situation onto those who try. This is The Bile.

None of you are going to 'get it' it seems, that the one-dimensional public-private split you all do in your heads is just that, which is fine. If unions are so powerless then why the anger? All you are doing is creating prisons, mentally, about who is subservient and who does the ruling.

Where have I made any assumptions about you?
What anger? I am unsympathetic to those on strike but I'm not angry about it. I just got a new job myself with a considerable pay rise so I've managed to change my own life thanks.
The point I have been making and that I continue to make is that (in my opinion) high public sector pensions are a waste of tax payers money and it is widely acknowledged that they are unsustainable.
If this means i don't 'get it' then I'm glad I don't!

Thee Voice of Reason wrote:
There was a strike yesterday?
Can't say I even noticed.

Likewise.

Farsley Bantam wrote:

Steveaitch wrote:
Well you're right, maybe I wasn't clear enough. The 'bile' is in your assumption that I have a pension at all, and that if I have one that it is in any sort of healthy shape. The bile is in the fact that you make any kind of qualitative or quantitative assumptions about my life at all. You don't know my work, the hours, or the pay. This is what the problem is on here, you just don't know, and if you go back to the longer post, this is what I am saying - this is all 'doxa' - unexamined opinion.

I think it's really quite amusing that you start to transfer the anger onto my shoulders - and yes there is some, why wouldn't there be at this moment in history - but what I see here is people stifled by their lack of power to change their lives actually directing that anger over the situation onto those who try. This is The Bile.

None of you are going to 'get it' it seems, that the one-dimensional public-private split you all do in your heads is just that, which is fine. If unions are so powerless then why the anger? All you are doing is creating prisons, mentally, about who is subservient and who does the ruling.

Where have I made any assumptions about you?
What anger? I am unsympathetic to those on strike but I'm not angry about it. I just got a new job myself with a considerable pay rise so I've managed to change my own life thanks.
The point I have been making and that I continue to make is that (in my opinion) high public sector pensions are a waste of tax payers money and it is widely acknowledged that they are unsustainable.
If this means i don't 'get it' then I'm glad I don't!

If this country was a company it would be wound up. Pensions such as the public sector began being canned at least a decade ago in the private sector, the current terms are not sustainable in the long term and that's the reality.

All these strikes are doing is highlighting the fact there's many functions that need privatising and outsourcing so that the country can't be held to ransom in future decades.

Workers have a legal right to strike, no one should be ashamed to stand up for their rights. The only people who should hang their heads in shame are the bankers who caused this recession yet they are still being rewarded with huge bonuses for their failure, being bailed out by the government using taxpayers money. Yet workers who have not had a pay rise for more than two years are criticised for striking. It is not the poor, vunerable and disabled who caused our financial problems. Our present government are borrowing more money everyday than any previous government .

Workers have a legal right to strike, no one should be ashamed to stand up for their rights. The only people who should hang their heads in shame are the bankers who caused this recession yet they are still being rewarded with huge bonuses for their failure, being bailed out by the government using taxpayers money. Yet workers who have not had a pay rise for more than two years are criticised for striking. It is not the poor, vunerable and disabled who caused our financial problems. Our present government are borrowing more money everyday than any previous government .

bradfordian wrote:
Workers have a legal right to strike, no one should be ashamed to stand up for their rights. The only people who should hang their heads in shame are the bankers who caused this recession yet they are still being rewarded with huge bonuses for their failure, being bailed out by the government using taxpayers money. Yet workers who have not had a pay rise for more than two years are criticised for striking. It is not the poor, vunerable and disabled who caused our financial problems. Our present government are borrowing more money everyday than any previous government .

Yes but the point is it won't do any good, the number of strikes that ever actually achieved anything other than a thinner wage packet are very few.

Albion. wrote:

bradfordian wrote:
Workers have a legal right to strike, no one should be ashamed to stand up for their rights. The only people who should hang their heads in shame are the bankers who caused this recession yet they are still being rewarded with huge bonuses for their failure, being bailed out by the government using taxpayers money. Yet workers who have not had a pay rise for more than two years are criticised for striking. It is not the poor, vunerable and disabled who caused our financial problems. Our present government are borrowing more money everyday than any previous government .

Yes but the point is it won't do any good, the number of strikes that ever actually achieved anything other than a thinner wage packet are very few.

exept in France where the workers all stick together