Pupils crammed into 'supersized' classes as Bradford's schools places shortage grows

Busy classroom scene

Cllr Ralph Berry, executive member for children's services.

Education Secretary Michael Gove

First published in News
Last updated
Bradford Telegraph and Argus: Photograph of the Author by , Parliamentary Correspondent

INFANTS in Bradford are being crammed into ‘supersized’ classes because of a growing shortage of places, worrying figures show.

The number of five to seven-year-olds in classes of more than 30 – the legal limit, except in exceptional circumstances - has almost doubled in four years.

In January, the total stood at 3,819, up from 1,996 when the Coalition came to power – an increase of 1,823, or 91 per cent, according to figures uncovered by Labour.

There has been a similar leap in Calderdale (up 86 per cent) and even more dramatic rises in Leeds (313 per cent) and – in particular – Kirklees (2,616 per cent).

Now Bradford City Council’s education chief, Councillor Ralph Berry, has acknowledged some parents are beginning to protest at the squeeze on places.

He warned: “We are simply not being given the resources we need to expand the primary school estate as we need to.

“We are 200-300 over the official number, which means schools are under great pressure to find places and a number are being pushed over the limit.”

Labour claimed the figures showed limited money was being diverted from state primary schools to fund Education Secretary Michael Gove's controversial ‘free school’ programme.

To David Cameron’s embarrassment, the future prime minister promised “small schools with smaller class sizes” before the last election, it pointed out.

But the Department for Education (DfE) blamed increases in pupil numbers dating back a decade and said local authorities had been given £5bn to spend on new school places.

A limit on infant school class sizes was introduced by Labour in the late 1990s, after it made a ceiling of 30 pupils a key election issue.

It states that no more than 30 should be taught by one teacher, but schools can legally waive the limit if, for example, a parent wins an appeal for a place.

More recently, Mr Gove has relaxed the regulations further, allowing schools to breach the limit for 12 months in some cases, provided numbers are brought down the following year.

Some experts argue larger classes make it harder for infants to learn, particularly those that need extra help or find it harder to pay attention.

Cllr Berry said parents at some schools were protesting at infant classes of 34 or 35 pupils – mentioning Wycliffe Primary, in Shipley – but added: “I get even more complaints when they can’t get their kids in.

“The promise of classes of 30 is being severely undermined, but we have had magnificent co-operation from head teachers and governors, because we can’t force them to take more children.”

A DfE spokesman said: “We are giving local authorities £5bn to spend on new school place over this parliament - double the amount allocated by the previous government over an equivalent period.”

Comments (34)

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8:09am Sat 14 Jun 14

collos25 says...

When money is supposedly tight and the corrupt still want their wedge what do they expect.
When money is supposedly tight and the corrupt still want their wedge what do they expect. collos25
  • Score: -3

8:56am Sat 14 Jun 14

baildongreen says...

Root cause is population growth caused by an elevated birth rate. We have to limit the size of families.
Root cause is population growth caused by an elevated birth rate. We have to limit the size of families. baildongreen
  • Score: 54

9:00am Sat 14 Jun 14

collos25 says...

baildongreen wrote:
Root cause is population growth caused by an elevated birth rate. We have to limit the size of families.
You will never ever in the UK do that so why waste your breath.
[quote][p][bold]baildongreen[/bold] wrote: Root cause is population growth caused by an elevated birth rate. We have to limit the size of families.[/p][/quote]You will never ever in the UK do that so why waste your breath. collos25
  • Score: -12

9:18am Sat 14 Jun 14

Wanna Have says...

As long as they ensure that they can send their children to prep schools with class sizes of 12 the tories will not be concerned.there vision is that they are the hereditary masters and our children are the future working peasants after all.
As long as they ensure that they can send their children to prep schools with class sizes of 12 the tories will not be concerned.there vision is that they are the hereditary masters and our children are the future working peasants after all. Wanna Have
  • Score: 31

9:24am Sat 14 Jun 14

sorrow&anger says...

The demand for school places can be predicted accurately up to four years ahead because the birth rate is known. The fact that Cllr Berry and City Hall have been caught unprepared speaks volumes about their competence.
The demand for school places can be predicted accurately up to four years ahead because the birth rate is known. The fact that Cllr Berry and City Hall have been caught unprepared speaks volumes about their competence. sorrow&anger
  • Score: 53

9:25am Sat 14 Jun 14

Johsay says...

Total cobblers, they've done nothing to alleviate the issues time and again, blaming central govt when you've £23m in the bank is garbage.
Total cobblers, they've done nothing to alleviate the issues time and again, blaming central govt when you've £23m in the bank is garbage. Johsay
  • Score: 16

9:29am Sat 14 Jun 14

pcmanners says...

Once education is fully privatised and run by profit making companies parents will have a free choice of school and these problems won’t exist. It is only socialist interference in what should be a free market that has created these problems.
Once education is fully privatised and run by profit making companies parents will have a free choice of school and these problems won’t exist. It is only socialist interference in what should be a free market that has created these problems. pcmanners
  • Score: 24

9:34am Sat 14 Jun 14

BD16 says...

When the last government let in over 500k, mainly younger, people from Eastern Europe did they never think that they might have kids that would need school places?

A population that is increasing quicker than we can keep demand with is causing an already strained infrastructure to creak and collapse. Like Baildongreen says, we need to get the population under control.
When the last government let in over 500k, mainly younger, people from Eastern Europe did they never think that they might have kids that would need school places? A population that is increasing quicker than we can keep demand with is causing an already strained infrastructure to creak and collapse. Like Baildongreen says, we need to get the population under control. BD16
  • Score: 39

9:35am Sat 14 Jun 14

bluebluerobin says...

Johsay wrote:
Total cobblers, they've done nothing to alleviate the issues time and again, blaming central govt when you've £23m in the bank is garbage.
The Labour Group have taken over the scrutiny committees so Cllr Berry and his colleagues are safe from criticism. They can do what they want and ignore the rest of us.
[quote][p][bold]Johsay[/bold] wrote: Total cobblers, they've done nothing to alleviate the issues time and again, blaming central govt when you've £23m in the bank is garbage.[/p][/quote]The Labour Group have taken over the scrutiny committees so Cllr Berry and his colleagues are safe from criticism. They can do what they want and ignore the rest of us. bluebluerobin
  • Score: 41

9:55am Sat 14 Jun 14

bachtothefuture says...

Yet another crisis that finds the Council totally unprepared and offering an inadequate response. Unless the city can educate its children it will never regenerate. It’s no good blaming the Government, we will have to solve this problem for ourselves.
Yet another crisis that finds the Council totally unprepared and offering an inadequate response. Unless the city can educate its children it will never regenerate. It’s no good blaming the Government, we will have to solve this problem for ourselves. bachtothefuture
  • Score: 38

11:17am Sat 14 Jun 14

Albion. says...

As a pensioner I can remember class sizes of more than 30 and no problem, mind you there was discipline then and parents always took the side of teachers.
As a pensioner I can remember class sizes of more than 30 and no problem, mind you there was discipline then and parents always took the side of teachers. Albion.
  • Score: 13

11:33am Sat 14 Jun 14

basil fawlty says...

In the short term when money is tight, a few extra pupils in classes isnt a major concern. But in the longer term the continued population explosion must be discouraged by changes to the tax and benefits system.
In the short term when money is tight, a few extra pupils in classes isnt a major concern. But in the longer term the continued population explosion must be discouraged by changes to the tax and benefits system. basil fawlty
  • Score: 6

11:41am Sat 14 Jun 14

Victor Clayton says...

BD16 wrote:
When the last government let in over 500k, mainly younger, people from Eastern Europe did they never think that they might have kids that would need school places?

A population that is increasing quicker than we can keep demand with is causing an already strained infrastructure to creak and collapse. Like Baildongreen says, we need to get the population under control.
And I would love to know how much tax is being collected from them.
[quote][p][bold]BD16[/bold] wrote: When the last government let in over 500k, mainly younger, people from Eastern Europe did they never think that they might have kids that would need school places? A population that is increasing quicker than we can keep demand with is causing an already strained infrastructure to creak and collapse. Like Baildongreen says, we need to get the population under control.[/p][/quote]And I would love to know how much tax is being collected from them. Victor Clayton
  • Score: 10

12:10pm Sat 14 Jun 14

SurprisedByJoyce says...

basil fawlty wrote:
In the short term when money is tight, a few extra pupils in classes isnt a major concern. But in the longer term the continued population explosion must be discouraged by changes to the tax and benefits system.
This is completely wrong. Size does matter. It has been shown time and time again that if children get off to a bad start in primary school then it dogs them for the rest of their academic career. The best way to get a child off to a good start is in a small class. That is why people pay a lot of money for private education because it guarantees small class sizes.
[quote][p][bold]basil fawlty[/bold] wrote: In the short term when money is tight, a few extra pupils in classes isnt a major concern. But in the longer term the continued population explosion must be discouraged by changes to the tax and benefits system.[/p][/quote]This is completely wrong. Size does matter. It has been shown time and time again that if children get off to a bad start in primary school then it dogs them for the rest of their academic career. The best way to get a child off to a good start is in a small class. That is why people pay a lot of money for private education because it guarantees small class sizes. SurprisedByJoyce
  • Score: 29

12:30pm Sat 14 Jun 14

SecondHannah says...

SurprisedByJoyce wrote:
basil fawlty wrote:
In the short term when money is tight, a few extra pupils in classes isnt a major concern. But in the longer term the continued population explosion must be discouraged by changes to the tax and benefits system.
This is completely wrong. Size does matter. It has been shown time and time again that if children get off to a bad start in primary school then it dogs them for the rest of their academic career. The best way to get a child off to a good start is in a small class. That is why people pay a lot of money for private education because it guarantees small class sizes.
It is so important that a child gets enough individual attention otherwise it will not thrive. Our children are Bradford's future. I cannot understand why the Council is so neglectful of education.
[quote][p][bold]SurprisedByJoyce[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]basil fawlty[/bold] wrote: In the short term when money is tight, a few extra pupils in classes isnt a major concern. But in the longer term the continued population explosion must be discouraged by changes to the tax and benefits system.[/p][/quote]This is completely wrong. Size does matter. It has been shown time and time again that if children get off to a bad start in primary school then it dogs them for the rest of their academic career. The best way to get a child off to a good start is in a small class. That is why people pay a lot of money for private education because it guarantees small class sizes.[/p][/quote]It is so important that a child gets enough individual attention otherwise it will not thrive. Our children are Bradford's future. I cannot understand why the Council is so neglectful of education. SecondHannah
  • Score: 49

12:46pm Sat 14 Jun 14

pollywolly says...

I first attended school in 1952 and there were 40+ pupils in the class then. It always tended to be over 30 in the two schools I went to. Most of us did pretty well although discipline was tighter and you didn't hear much about disruptive pupils then.
I first attended school in 1952 and there were 40+ pupils in the class then. It always tended to be over 30 in the two schools I went to. Most of us did pretty well although discipline was tighter and you didn't hear much about disruptive pupils then. pollywolly
  • Score: 3

1:58pm Sat 14 Jun 14

spudulike says...

What a nightmare for teachers-unchecked immigration from the third world parts of europe and beyond are busting an already crippled social service,one day we may get some honest politicians with balls-i'm not holding my breath though
What a nightmare for teachers-unchecked immigration from the third world parts of europe and beyond are busting an already crippled social service,one day we may get some honest politicians with balls-i'm not holding my breath though spudulike
  • Score: 43

5:36pm Sat 14 Jun 14

izzystillbreathing says...

Albion. wrote:
As a pensioner I can remember class sizes of more than 30 and no problem, mind you there was discipline then and parents always took the side of teachers.
Albion we ancient ones have to stop living in the past, wittering on about how things used to be.

Large classes worked when all that was needed was just about the three Rs. In those days all industry and commerce needed was an army of unskilled and semi-skilled workers. Less than 2% of the population needed to go to University.

Today it’s different. If the UK (and Bradford) is to earn its living we need an army of highly skilled workers and innovators. That process starts way back in primary school. The Council’s feeble response is totally irresponsible. Cllr. Green keeps banging on about Bradford being a producer city; well it won’t happen while Cllr. Berry is undermining his efforts.
[quote][p][bold]Albion.[/bold] wrote: As a pensioner I can remember class sizes of more than 30 and no problem, mind you there was discipline then and parents always took the side of teachers.[/p][/quote]Albion we ancient ones have to stop living in the past, wittering on about how things used to be. Large classes worked when all that was needed was just about the three Rs. In those days all industry and commerce needed was an army of unskilled and semi-skilled workers. Less than 2% of the population needed to go to University. Today it’s different. If the UK (and Bradford) is to earn its living we need an army of highly skilled workers and innovators. That process starts way back in primary school. The Council’s feeble response is totally irresponsible. Cllr. Green keeps banging on about Bradford being a producer city; well it won’t happen while Cllr. Berry is undermining his efforts. izzystillbreathing
  • Score: 50

5:42pm Sat 14 Jun 14

justjustice says...

collos25 wrote:
baildongreen wrote:
Root cause is population growth caused by an elevated birth rate. We have to limit the size of families.
You will never ever in the UK do that so why waste your breath.
And this is what you get when you place human rights before humanity.
[quote][p][bold]collos25[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]baildongreen[/bold] wrote: Root cause is population growth caused by an elevated birth rate. We have to limit the size of families.[/p][/quote]You will never ever in the UK do that so why waste your breath.[/p][/quote]And this is what you get when you place human rights before humanity. justjustice
  • Score: 34

7:08pm Sat 14 Jun 14

Albion. says...

izzystillbreathing wrote:
Albion. wrote:
As a pensioner I can remember class sizes of more than 30 and no problem, mind you there was discipline then and parents always took the side of teachers.
Albion we ancient ones have to stop living in the past, wittering on about how things used to be.

Large classes worked when all that was needed was just about the three Rs. In those days all industry and commerce needed was an army of unskilled and semi-skilled workers. Less than 2% of the population needed to go to University.

Today it’s different. If the UK (and Bradford) is to earn its living we need an army of highly skilled workers and innovators. That process starts way back in primary school. The Council’s feeble response is totally irresponsible. Cllr. Green keeps banging on about Bradford being a producer city; well it won’t happen while Cllr. Berry is undermining his efforts.
I am highly skilled and owned my own businesses and I wasn't "wittering"!
Too many kids have their school time disrupted by those who have been brought up to have no interest or ambition, mainly because they are allowed to behave how they wish at home and because they know they can get away with bad behaviour in class. Maybe separating those who behave well and try hard from some of the others and adding a more effective system of discipline might pay off. I agree that we need an army of highly skilled workers but a good many of today's kids aren't ever going to provide that, I think the best efforts should be concentrated on those who will.
[quote][p][bold]izzystillbreathing[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Albion.[/bold] wrote: As a pensioner I can remember class sizes of more than 30 and no problem, mind you there was discipline then and parents always took the side of teachers.[/p][/quote]Albion we ancient ones have to stop living in the past, wittering on about how things used to be. Large classes worked when all that was needed was just about the three Rs. In those days all industry and commerce needed was an army of unskilled and semi-skilled workers. Less than 2% of the population needed to go to University. Today it’s different. If the UK (and Bradford) is to earn its living we need an army of highly skilled workers and innovators. That process starts way back in primary school. The Council’s feeble response is totally irresponsible. Cllr. Green keeps banging on about Bradford being a producer city; well it won’t happen while Cllr. Berry is undermining his efforts.[/p][/quote]I am highly skilled and owned my own businesses and I wasn't "wittering"! Too many kids have their school time disrupted by those who have been brought up to have no interest or ambition, mainly because they are allowed to behave how they wish at home and because they know they can get away with bad behaviour in class. Maybe separating those who behave well and try hard from some of the others and adding a more effective system of discipline might pay off. I agree that we need an army of highly skilled workers but a good many of today's kids aren't ever going to provide that, I think the best efforts should be concentrated on those who will. Albion.
  • Score: 6

7:08pm Sat 14 Jun 14

gouldengirl says...

BD16 wrote:
When the last government let in over 500k, mainly younger, people from Eastern Europe did they never think that they might have kids that would need school places?

A population that is increasing quicker than we can keep demand with is causing an already strained infrastructure to creak and collapse. Like Baildongreen says, we need to get the population under control.
Unfortunately population growth is the key to our problems.

Bradford attracts so many migrants because there is a need for a low-skill low-pay workforce. The migrants in turn flood our schools with children ensuring an undereducated, low-skill, low-pay workforce. The only way out of this vicious circle is for Cllr. Berry to do something about class sizes now, other than whingeing on about the Government. Bradford’s schools are his responsibility. He must fix the problem.
[quote][p][bold]BD16[/bold] wrote: When the last government let in over 500k, mainly younger, people from Eastern Europe did they never think that they might have kids that would need school places? A population that is increasing quicker than we can keep demand with is causing an already strained infrastructure to creak and collapse. Like Baildongreen says, we need to get the population under control.[/p][/quote]Unfortunately population growth is the key to our problems. Bradford attracts so many migrants because there is a need for a low-skill low-pay workforce. The migrants in turn flood our schools with children ensuring an undereducated, low-skill, low-pay workforce. The only way out of this vicious circle is for Cllr. Berry to do something about class sizes now, other than whingeing on about the Government. Bradford’s schools are his responsibility. He must fix the problem. gouldengirl
  • Score: 39

7:23pm Sat 14 Jun 14

izzystillbreathing says...

Albion. wrote:
izzystillbreathing wrote:
Albion. wrote:
As a pensioner I can remember class sizes of more than 30 and no problem, mind you there was discipline then and parents always took the side of teachers.
Albion we ancient ones have to stop living in the past, wittering on about how things used to be.

Large classes worked when all that was needed was just about the three Rs. In those days all industry and commerce needed was an army of unskilled and semi-skilled workers. Less than 2% of the population needed to go to University.

Today it’s different. If the UK (and Bradford) is to earn its living we need an army of highly skilled workers and innovators. That process starts way back in primary school. The Council’s feeble response is totally irresponsible. Cllr. Green keeps banging on about Bradford being a producer city; well it won’t happen while Cllr. Berry is undermining his efforts.
I am highly skilled and owned my own businesses and I wasn't "wittering"!
Too many kids have their school time disrupted by those who have been brought up to have no interest or ambition, mainly because they are allowed to behave how they wish at home and because they know they can get away with bad behaviour in class. Maybe separating those who behave well and try hard from some of the others and adding a more effective system of discipline might pay off. I agree that we need an army of highly skilled workers but a good many of today's kids aren't ever going to provide that, I think the best efforts should be concentrated on those who will.
I'm with you there. Cllr. Berry needs to forget about this comprehensive rubbish. Children should be selected on academic ability and. these days, behavioural qualities and only those kids given a decent education. It's wasted on the the rest. They just need to be literate enough to fill in their benefits claim.

The eleven plus should never have been abolished in 1965. I said we would regret it at the time, but Crossland gave into Tory middle class pressure.
[quote][p][bold]Albion.[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]izzystillbreathing[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Albion.[/bold] wrote: As a pensioner I can remember class sizes of more than 30 and no problem, mind you there was discipline then and parents always took the side of teachers.[/p][/quote]Albion we ancient ones have to stop living in the past, wittering on about how things used to be. Large classes worked when all that was needed was just about the three Rs. In those days all industry and commerce needed was an army of unskilled and semi-skilled workers. Less than 2% of the population needed to go to University. Today it’s different. If the UK (and Bradford) is to earn its living we need an army of highly skilled workers and innovators. That process starts way back in primary school. The Council’s feeble response is totally irresponsible. Cllr. Green keeps banging on about Bradford being a producer city; well it won’t happen while Cllr. Berry is undermining his efforts.[/p][/quote]I am highly skilled and owned my own businesses and I wasn't "wittering"! Too many kids have their school time disrupted by those who have been brought up to have no interest or ambition, mainly because they are allowed to behave how they wish at home and because they know they can get away with bad behaviour in class. Maybe separating those who behave well and try hard from some of the others and adding a more effective system of discipline might pay off. I agree that we need an army of highly skilled workers but a good many of today's kids aren't ever going to provide that, I think the best efforts should be concentrated on those who will.[/p][/quote]I'm with you there. Cllr. Berry needs to forget about this comprehensive rubbish. Children should be selected on academic ability and. these days, behavioural qualities and only those kids given a decent education. It's wasted on the the rest. They just need to be literate enough to fill in their benefits claim. The eleven plus should never have been abolished in 1965. I said we would regret it at the time, but Crossland gave into Tory middle class pressure. izzystillbreathing
  • Score: -26

9:23pm Sat 14 Jun 14

Grumpygirl says...

izzystillbreathing wrote:
Albion. wrote:
izzystillbreathing wrote:
Albion. wrote:
As a pensioner I can remember class sizes of more than 30 and no problem, mind you there was discipline then and parents always took the side of teachers.
Albion we ancient ones have to stop living in the past, wittering on about how things used to be.

Large classes worked when all that was needed was just about the three Rs. In those days all industry and commerce needed was an army of unskilled and semi-skilled workers. Less than 2% of the population needed to go to University.

Today it’s different. If the UK (and Bradford) is to earn its living we need an army of highly skilled workers and innovators. That process starts way back in primary school. The Council’s feeble response is totally irresponsible. Cllr. Green keeps banging on about Bradford being a producer city; well it won’t happen while Cllr. Berry is undermining his efforts.
I am highly skilled and owned my own businesses and I wasn't "wittering"!
Too many kids have their school time disrupted by those who have been brought up to have no interest or ambition, mainly because they are allowed to behave how they wish at home and because they know they can get away with bad behaviour in class. Maybe separating those who behave well and try hard from some of the others and adding a more effective system of discipline might pay off. I agree that we need an army of highly skilled workers but a good many of today's kids aren't ever going to provide that, I think the best efforts should be concentrated on those who will.
I'm with you there. Cllr. Berry needs to forget about this comprehensive rubbish. Children should be selected on academic ability and. these days, behavioural qualities and only those kids given a decent education. It's wasted on the the rest. They just need to be literate enough to fill in their benefits claim.

The eleven plus should never have been abolished in 1965. I said we would regret it at the time, but Crossland gave into Tory middle class pressure.
The Crossland reforms were a complete betrayal of the principles of equality, fairness and equal opportunities.

Wilson gave in to the swathes of Tory middle England who weren’t rich enough to afford private education but whose kids were stuck in the local secondary modern because they were too thick to pass the 11+. This was the beginning of the end of social mobility.

Nowadays we have the Tory system that allows the rich to purchase unfair advantages for their kids. Bright working class kids haven’t a chance in Cameron's Britain.
[quote][p][bold]izzystillbreathing[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Albion.[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]izzystillbreathing[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Albion.[/bold] wrote: As a pensioner I can remember class sizes of more than 30 and no problem, mind you there was discipline then and parents always took the side of teachers.[/p][/quote]Albion we ancient ones have to stop living in the past, wittering on about how things used to be. Large classes worked when all that was needed was just about the three Rs. In those days all industry and commerce needed was an army of unskilled and semi-skilled workers. Less than 2% of the population needed to go to University. Today it’s different. If the UK (and Bradford) is to earn its living we need an army of highly skilled workers and innovators. That process starts way back in primary school. The Council’s feeble response is totally irresponsible. Cllr. Green keeps banging on about Bradford being a producer city; well it won’t happen while Cllr. Berry is undermining his efforts.[/p][/quote]I am highly skilled and owned my own businesses and I wasn't "wittering"! Too many kids have their school time disrupted by those who have been brought up to have no interest or ambition, mainly because they are allowed to behave how they wish at home and because they know they can get away with bad behaviour in class. Maybe separating those who behave well and try hard from some of the others and adding a more effective system of discipline might pay off. I agree that we need an army of highly skilled workers but a good many of today's kids aren't ever going to provide that, I think the best efforts should be concentrated on those who will.[/p][/quote]I'm with you there. Cllr. Berry needs to forget about this comprehensive rubbish. Children should be selected on academic ability and. these days, behavioural qualities and only those kids given a decent education. It's wasted on the the rest. They just need to be literate enough to fill in their benefits claim. The eleven plus should never have been abolished in 1965. I said we would regret it at the time, but Crossland gave into Tory middle class pressure.[/p][/quote]The Crossland reforms were a complete betrayal of the principles of equality, fairness and equal opportunities. Wilson gave in to the swathes of Tory middle England who weren’t rich enough to afford private education but whose kids were stuck in the local secondary modern because they were too thick to pass the 11+. This was the beginning of the end of social mobility. Nowadays we have the Tory system that allows the rich to purchase unfair advantages for their kids. Bright working class kids haven’t a chance in Cameron's Britain. Grumpygirl
  • Score: 17

8:09am Sun 15 Jun 14

SinnerSaint says...

Grumpygirl wrote:
izzystillbreathing wrote:
Albion. wrote:
izzystillbreathing wrote:
Albion. wrote:
As a pensioner I can remember class sizes of more than 30 and no problem, mind you there was discipline then and parents always took the side of teachers.
Albion we ancient ones have to stop living in the past, wittering on about how things used to be.

Large classes worked when all that was needed was just about the three Rs. In those days all industry and commerce needed was an army of unskilled and semi-skilled workers. Less than 2% of the population needed to go to University.

Today it’s different. If the UK (and Bradford) is to earn its living we need an army of highly skilled workers and innovators. That process starts way back in primary school. The Council’s feeble response is totally irresponsible. Cllr. Green keeps banging on about Bradford being a producer city; well it won’t happen while Cllr. Berry is undermining his efforts.
I am highly skilled and owned my own businesses and I wasn't "wittering"!
Too many kids have their school time disrupted by those who have been brought up to have no interest or ambition, mainly because they are allowed to behave how they wish at home and because they know they can get away with bad behaviour in class. Maybe separating those who behave well and try hard from some of the others and adding a more effective system of discipline might pay off. I agree that we need an army of highly skilled workers but a good many of today's kids aren't ever going to provide that, I think the best efforts should be concentrated on those who will.
I'm with you there. Cllr. Berry needs to forget about this comprehensive rubbish. Children should be selected on academic ability and. these days, behavioural qualities and only those kids given a decent education. It's wasted on the the rest. They just need to be literate enough to fill in their benefits claim.

The eleven plus should never have been abolished in 1965. I said we would regret it at the time, but Crossland gave into Tory middle class pressure.
The Crossland reforms were a complete betrayal of the principles of equality, fairness and equal opportunities.

Wilson gave in to the swathes of Tory middle England who weren’t rich enough to afford private education but whose kids were stuck in the local secondary modern because they were too thick to pass the 11+. This was the beginning of the end of social mobility.

Nowadays we have the Tory system that allows the rich to purchase unfair advantages for their kids. Bright working class kids haven’t a chance in Cameron's Britain.
Hahahahaha!!! Oh dear - rewriting history now are we Frumpy?
[quote][p][bold]Grumpygirl[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]izzystillbreathing[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Albion.[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]izzystillbreathing[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Albion.[/bold] wrote: As a pensioner I can remember class sizes of more than 30 and no problem, mind you there was discipline then and parents always took the side of teachers.[/p][/quote]Albion we ancient ones have to stop living in the past, wittering on about how things used to be. Large classes worked when all that was needed was just about the three Rs. In those days all industry and commerce needed was an army of unskilled and semi-skilled workers. Less than 2% of the population needed to go to University. Today it’s different. If the UK (and Bradford) is to earn its living we need an army of highly skilled workers and innovators. That process starts way back in primary school. The Council’s feeble response is totally irresponsible. Cllr. Green keeps banging on about Bradford being a producer city; well it won’t happen while Cllr. Berry is undermining his efforts.[/p][/quote]I am highly skilled and owned my own businesses and I wasn't "wittering"! Too many kids have their school time disrupted by those who have been brought up to have no interest or ambition, mainly because they are allowed to behave how they wish at home and because they know they can get away with bad behaviour in class. Maybe separating those who behave well and try hard from some of the others and adding a more effective system of discipline might pay off. I agree that we need an army of highly skilled workers but a good many of today's kids aren't ever going to provide that, I think the best efforts should be concentrated on those who will.[/p][/quote]I'm with you there. Cllr. Berry needs to forget about this comprehensive rubbish. Children should be selected on academic ability and. these days, behavioural qualities and only those kids given a decent education. It's wasted on the the rest. They just need to be literate enough to fill in their benefits claim. The eleven plus should never have been abolished in 1965. I said we would regret it at the time, but Crossland gave into Tory middle class pressure.[/p][/quote]The Crossland reforms were a complete betrayal of the principles of equality, fairness and equal opportunities. Wilson gave in to the swathes of Tory middle England who weren’t rich enough to afford private education but whose kids were stuck in the local secondary modern because they were too thick to pass the 11+. This was the beginning of the end of social mobility. Nowadays we have the Tory system that allows the rich to purchase unfair advantages for their kids. Bright working class kids haven’t a chance in Cameron's Britain.[/p][/quote]Hahahahaha!!! Oh dear - rewriting history now are we Frumpy? SinnerSaint
  • Score: -7

8:24am Sun 15 Jun 14

mad matt says...

Birthrate is way too high so the shortage of school places is only going to get worse.
It can be brought down to a more manageable level quite simply, just give child allowance (or whatever it's called these days) for the first two kids in a family, any more than two and they pay for their upbringing themselves.
You'll soon see the birthrate drop when people realise that they can't just keep on producing kids for the state to support.
Birthrate is way too high so the shortage of school places is only going to get worse. It can be brought down to a more manageable level quite simply, just give child allowance (or whatever it's called these days) for the first two kids in a family, any more than two and they pay for their upbringing themselves. You'll soon see the birthrate drop when people realise that they can't just keep on producing kids for the state to support. mad matt
  • Score: 11

10:44am Sun 15 Jun 14

Albion. says...

mad matt wrote:
Birthrate is way too high so the shortage of school places is only going to get worse.
It can be brought down to a more manageable level quite simply, just give child allowance (or whatever it's called these days) for the first two kids in a family, any more than two and they pay for their upbringing themselves.
You'll soon see the birthrate drop when people realise that they can't just keep on producing kids for the state to support.
I don't think you will (in Bradford) when you consider that most of the births here are going to people with a history of high birthrate, even when penniless and devoid of medical assistance in the land of their (or their parents) origin.
[quote][p][bold]mad matt[/bold] wrote: Birthrate is way too high so the shortage of school places is only going to get worse. It can be brought down to a more manageable level quite simply, just give child allowance (or whatever it's called these days) for the first two kids in a family, any more than two and they pay for their upbringing themselves. You'll soon see the birthrate drop when people realise that they can't just keep on producing kids for the state to support.[/p][/quote]I don't think you will (in Bradford) when you consider that most of the births here are going to people with a history of high birthrate, even when penniless and devoid of medical assistance in the land of their (or their parents) origin. Albion.
  • Score: 5

12:37pm Sun 15 Jun 14

SurprisedByJoyce says...

Albion. wrote:
mad matt wrote:
Birthrate is way too high so the shortage of school places is only going to get worse.
It can be brought down to a more manageable level quite simply, just give child allowance (or whatever it's called these days) for the first two kids in a family, any more than two and they pay for their upbringing themselves.
You'll soon see the birthrate drop when people realise that they can't just keep on producing kids for the state to support.
I don't think you will (in Bradford) when you consider that most of the births here are going to people with a history of high birthrate, even when penniless and devoid of medical assistance in the land of their (or their parents) origin.
It's a fact that always seems to be ignored but the world total fertility rate has dropped to an almost replacement-only value of 2.5 children. Most of the developing world has got the message that large families are not a good idea.

In the UK the overall fertility rate is 1.92, well below replacement (population growth is entirely a result of immigration.

Unfortunately Bradford with a fertility rate of 2.4 is much much higher than the national average. There are however huge difference between the various groups. For instance the latest BiB (Born in Bradford) report shows that approximately 39% of mothers are of white origin and 45% are Pakistani (16% belong to other (multiple) ethnic groups). However 67% of the city's population is white and 27% Asian. So roughly for every single white child there will three brown children. On top of that we have an unrecorded net migration figure which is suspected to be very high.

It's a touchy subject but Cllr. Berry and his friends need the courage to tackle it or Bradford will just continue sinking beneath the weight of all these extra bodies. However I suspect they won’t because it will mean offending the cultural sensitivities of their core voters. If it’s a choice between Bradford’s good and staying in power, Cllr. Green will stay in power.
[quote][p][bold]Albion.[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]mad matt[/bold] wrote: Birthrate is way too high so the shortage of school places is only going to get worse. It can be brought down to a more manageable level quite simply, just give child allowance (or whatever it's called these days) for the first two kids in a family, any more than two and they pay for their upbringing themselves. You'll soon see the birthrate drop when people realise that they can't just keep on producing kids for the state to support.[/p][/quote]I don't think you will (in Bradford) when you consider that most of the births here are going to people with a history of high birthrate, even when penniless and devoid of medical assistance in the land of their (or their parents) origin.[/p][/quote]It's a fact that always seems to be ignored but the world total fertility rate has dropped to an almost replacement-only value of 2.5 children. Most of the developing world has got the message that large families are not a good idea. In the UK the overall fertility rate is 1.92, well below replacement (population growth is entirely a result of immigration. Unfortunately Bradford with a fertility rate of 2.4 is much much higher than the national average. There are however huge difference between the various groups. For instance the latest BiB (Born in Bradford) report shows that approximately 39% of mothers are of white origin and 45% are Pakistani (16% belong to other (multiple) ethnic groups). However 67% of the city's population is white and 27% Asian. So roughly for every single white child there will three brown children. On top of that we have an unrecorded net migration figure which is suspected to be very high. It's a touchy subject but Cllr. Berry and his friends need the courage to tackle it or Bradford will just continue sinking beneath the weight of all these extra bodies. However I suspect they won’t because it will mean offending the cultural sensitivities of their core voters. If it’s a choice between Bradford’s good and staying in power, Cllr. Green will stay in power. SurprisedByJoyce
  • Score: 9

1:56pm Sun 15 Jun 14

They only do damage! says...

Too much immigration, with too many languages spoke, thanks labour for making people poorer, wars in asia and finally our own civil war.
Too much immigration, with too many languages spoke, thanks labour for making people poorer, wars in asia and finally our own civil war. They only do damage!
  • Score: 6

2:23pm Sun 15 Jun 14

bluebluerobin says...

SinnerSaint wrote:
Grumpygirl wrote:
izzystillbreathing wrote:
Albion. wrote:
izzystillbreathing wrote:
Albion. wrote:
As a pensioner I can remember class sizes of more than 30 and no problem, mind you there was discipline then and parents always took the side of teachers.
Albion we ancient ones have to stop living in the past, wittering on about how things used to be.

Large classes worked when all that was needed was just about the three Rs. In those days all industry and commerce needed was an army of unskilled and semi-skilled workers. Less than 2% of the population needed to go to University.

Today it’s different. If the UK (and Bradford) is to earn its living we need an army of highly skilled workers and innovators. That process starts way back in primary school. The Council’s feeble response is totally irresponsible. Cllr. Green keeps banging on about Bradford being a producer city; well it won’t happen while Cllr. Berry is undermining his efforts.
I am highly skilled and owned my own businesses and I wasn't "wittering"!
Too many kids have their school time disrupted by those who have been brought up to have no interest or ambition, mainly because they are allowed to behave how they wish at home and because they know they can get away with bad behaviour in class. Maybe separating those who behave well and try hard from some of the others and adding a more effective system of discipline might pay off. I agree that we need an army of highly skilled workers but a good many of today's kids aren't ever going to provide that, I think the best efforts should be concentrated on those who will.
I'm with you there. Cllr. Berry needs to forget about this comprehensive rubbish. Children should be selected on academic ability and. these days, behavioural qualities and only those kids given a decent education. It's wasted on the the rest. They just need to be literate enough to fill in their benefits claim.

The eleven plus should never have been abolished in 1965. I said we would regret it at the time, but Crossland gave into Tory middle class pressure.
The Crossland reforms were a complete betrayal of the principles of equality, fairness and equal opportunities.

Wilson gave in to the swathes of Tory middle England who weren’t rich enough to afford private education but whose kids were stuck in the local secondary modern because they were too thick to pass the 11+. This was the beginning of the end of social mobility.

Nowadays we have the Tory system that allows the rich to purchase unfair advantages for their kids. Bright working class kids haven’t a chance in Cameron's Britain.
Hahahahaha!!! Oh dear - rewriting history now are we Frumpy?
No sinner Grumpy is unfortunately quite right. Marxism is as much a theory about history as economics so its adherents tend to know their facts and then wilfully misinterpret them

It was the middle classes that declared war on the 11+. Lots of gripes about 'late developers' and the unsuitability of the exam etc. To be fair, in the 1950s Secondary Moderns and their curricula were more or less abandoned by the Government and they became sink establishments wasting lives before they were even started.
[quote][p][bold]SinnerSaint[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Grumpygirl[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]izzystillbreathing[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Albion.[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]izzystillbreathing[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Albion.[/bold] wrote: As a pensioner I can remember class sizes of more than 30 and no problem, mind you there was discipline then and parents always took the side of teachers.[/p][/quote]Albion we ancient ones have to stop living in the past, wittering on about how things used to be. Large classes worked when all that was needed was just about the three Rs. In those days all industry and commerce needed was an army of unskilled and semi-skilled workers. Less than 2% of the population needed to go to University. Today it’s different. If the UK (and Bradford) is to earn its living we need an army of highly skilled workers and innovators. That process starts way back in primary school. The Council’s feeble response is totally irresponsible. Cllr. Green keeps banging on about Bradford being a producer city; well it won’t happen while Cllr. Berry is undermining his efforts.[/p][/quote]I am highly skilled and owned my own businesses and I wasn't "wittering"! Too many kids have their school time disrupted by those who have been brought up to have no interest or ambition, mainly because they are allowed to behave how they wish at home and because they know they can get away with bad behaviour in class. Maybe separating those who behave well and try hard from some of the others and adding a more effective system of discipline might pay off. I agree that we need an army of highly skilled workers but a good many of today's kids aren't ever going to provide that, I think the best efforts should be concentrated on those who will.[/p][/quote]I'm with you there. Cllr. Berry needs to forget about this comprehensive rubbish. Children should be selected on academic ability and. these days, behavioural qualities and only those kids given a decent education. It's wasted on the the rest. They just need to be literate enough to fill in their benefits claim. The eleven plus should never have been abolished in 1965. I said we would regret it at the time, but Crossland gave into Tory middle class pressure.[/p][/quote]The Crossland reforms were a complete betrayal of the principles of equality, fairness and equal opportunities. Wilson gave in to the swathes of Tory middle England who weren’t rich enough to afford private education but whose kids were stuck in the local secondary modern because they were too thick to pass the 11+. This was the beginning of the end of social mobility. Nowadays we have the Tory system that allows the rich to purchase unfair advantages for their kids. Bright working class kids haven’t a chance in Cameron's Britain.[/p][/quote]Hahahahaha!!! Oh dear - rewriting history now are we Frumpy?[/p][/quote]No sinner Grumpy is unfortunately quite right. Marxism is as much a theory about history as economics so its adherents tend to know their facts and then wilfully misinterpret them It was the middle classes that declared war on the 11+. Lots of gripes about 'late developers' and the unsuitability of the exam etc. To be fair, in the 1950s Secondary Moderns and their curricula were more or less abandoned by the Government and they became sink establishments wasting lives before they were even started. bluebluerobin
  • Score: 0

4:04pm Sun 15 Jun 14

SinnerSaint says...

Crossland's wife said something like her husband had said he was going to destroy all the grammar schools.

It was a labour strategy driven by Crossland - absolutely nothing to do with the Tories.

Grumpy is either purposely rewriting history or twisting it to promote her own extreme socialist agenda.
Crossland's wife said something like her husband had said he was going to destroy all the grammar schools. It was a labour strategy driven by Crossland - absolutely nothing to do with the Tories. Grumpy is either purposely rewriting history or twisting it to promote her own extreme socialist agenda. SinnerSaint
  • Score: 5

4:21pm Sun 15 Jun 14

mad matt says...

You only have to walk round town with your eyes open to realise there are a hell of a lot of East European women, obviously well pregnant with kiddie in pushchair and another couple of kids in tow to realise that we do now have an immigrant population explosion.
Add to that the number of BIB families with 4, 5 or six kids and you can see where the statistics don't match what is actually happening.
It's too late to kerb the damage that has already been done, but it is possible to change the future.
You only have to walk round town with your eyes open to realise there are a hell of a lot of East European women, obviously well pregnant with kiddie in pushchair and another couple of kids in tow to realise that we do now have an immigrant population explosion. Add to that the number of BIB families with 4, 5 or six kids and you can see where the statistics don't match what is actually happening. It's too late to kerb the damage that has already been done, but it is possible to change the future. mad matt
  • Score: 0

4:34pm Sun 15 Jun 14

Albion. says...

mad matt wrote:
You only have to walk round town with your eyes open to realise there are a hell of a lot of East European women, obviously well pregnant with kiddie in pushchair and another couple of kids in tow to realise that we do now have an immigrant population explosion.
Add to that the number of BIB families with 4, 5 or six kids and you can see where the statistics don't match what is actually happening.
It's too late to kerb the damage that has already been done, but it is possible to change the future.
If you claim that the statistics are inaccurate it's up to you to prove it. If you walk around areas away from the city centre, you will see evidence that doesn't support your claims.
[quote][p][bold]mad matt[/bold] wrote: You only have to walk round town with your eyes open to realise there are a hell of a lot of East European women, obviously well pregnant with kiddie in pushchair and another couple of kids in tow to realise that we do now have an immigrant population explosion. Add to that the number of BIB families with 4, 5 or six kids and you can see where the statistics don't match what is actually happening. It's too late to kerb the damage that has already been done, but it is possible to change the future.[/p][/quote]If you claim that the statistics are inaccurate it's up to you to prove it. If you walk around areas away from the city centre, you will see evidence that doesn't support your claims. Albion.
  • Score: 1

6:39pm Sun 15 Jun 14

Colin Allcars says...

maybe it's about time people who didn't speak English paid for themselves and their kin to have interpretors and classroom assistants. Post war immigrants managed very well without. indeed should we still be having documents in Urdu 50 years after immigration from Pakistan, or should we expect to fund them for ever?
maybe it's about time people who didn't speak English paid for themselves and their kin to have interpretors and classroom assistants. Post war immigrants managed very well without. indeed should we still be having documents in Urdu 50 years after immigration from Pakistan, or should we expect to fund them for ever? Colin Allcars
  • Score: 4

6:53pm Sun 15 Jun 14

bonoforpm says...

They only do damage! wrote:
Too much immigration, with too many languages spoke, thanks labour for making people poorer, wars in asia and finally our own civil war.
Agreed

Tony Blair should be hanged for what he has done
[quote][p][bold]They only do damage![/bold] wrote: Too much immigration, with too many languages spoke, thanks labour for making people poorer, wars in asia and finally our own civil war.[/p][/quote]Agreed Tony Blair should be hanged for what he has done bonoforpm
  • Score: 0

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